PAPod 517 - From Kansas to the World: Todd Conklin’s Journey and the Evolution of Human Performance

Show Transcript

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Music.

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Welcome back to the Pre-Accident Podcast. I am your temporary host,

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Jeff Lith, and I am sorry.

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I am sorry because I'm Canadian, so I'm predisposed.

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But I'm also sorry because everybody's expecting to tune in to their favorite,

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favorite podcaster out there.

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We get to do something very special today, I think.

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And I get to interview a very special guest.

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Guest as a friend of the pod i get to

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interview the probably the most special guest of the pod

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and that is todd conklin am i saying that

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right conklin that is that is a that's a european pronunciation but yes that's

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correct awesome man no i'm excited to talk to you about this what a great beginning

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i didn't even know that was going to happen that was amazing well we never know

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what's going to happen on your cast well that's true turnabout is fair play

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that's true that is It's true.

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So listen, I want to talk to you like I now I get to feel with these tables

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turned as a as a as a listener, right,

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as a champion of the listener out there,

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not somebody who has a lot to say intelligently on your podcast. So.

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Let us begin, Todd, you, you know, in this podcast, you've you've created such

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a body of work and we feel like we get to know you through your work and through your discussions.

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But i'm curious and wondering if you're willing do you think i talk too much about the weather,

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i always worry that i talk too much about the weather well weather and food

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are two things that are food i don't worry about i don't i don't worry about

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food you can't talk enough about food.

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Though lobster rolls so i'm just saying that for halifax's benefit and not dallas's

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benefit And not Dallas. Okay, there you go.

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Listen, what stood out to me in no particular order was that you do mention

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Kansas a couple of times in this book.

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And I think that's really fascinating. And I wondered...

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Have you ever given everybody just a very brief summary of how a guy,

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now we know from a small town in Kansas,

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whose dad gave you that great footnote, how does a guy from rural small town

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Kansas make his way to being interviewed on this amazing podcast?

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The amazing pre-accident podcast?

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Yeah. Well, Jeff, that is the sweetest question. So I grew up in the middle

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of the United States, and I grew up in both Kansas and Colorado,

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but not very far apart from the two cities I grew up in.

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I grew up in eastern Colorado and western Kansas.

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And some would say there is no difference between eastern Colorado and western Kansas.

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It's the Great Plains, the High Plains, the very same ones that go up to Alberta

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and Calgary and to a great extent Saskatoon and that area.

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That's where I grew up. And it was a really fun place to grow up.

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And I had, you know, sort of a normal upbringing.

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I worked in a Alice Chalmers implement dealer, my first job, my little kid job.

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And then I transferred from there I went there to the veterinary clinic,

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which was actually quite an education because my veterinarian was – that I worked

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for, there were actually two of them.

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They specialized in large animal because it's a large animal kind of place, so cattle and horses.

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But then they also did small animal because that's how you made your money.

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So if you wanted to eat and buy a new car you had to take care of mrs.

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Johnson's poodles more or you know mrs.

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Jones's cats that kind of thing and then I graduated from there to the grocery

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store and I don't know Jeff would you where did you grow up North Vancouver

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okay so growing up in rural North.

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Every little town, and my town had about almost 3,000 people in it,

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so it was tiny, although there are smaller for sure.

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The cool place to work when you were in high school was the grocery store.

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That's where all the cool kids worked, like the quarterback of the football team worked there.

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Not like the fast food joint. We didn't really have a fast food joint.

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Like we didn't have a McDonald's.

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We had a burger place called The Jet, but that was run by one family.

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So to work at the jet, you had to be the child of the person who owned the jet.

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I mean, they didn't bring outsiders into that community.

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And so I then worked for the grocery store. And in the midst of that,

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I got a job at a place called Philmont, which is a big Boy Scout camp in New Mexico.

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And that kind of opened my eyes because at the time I worked there,

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there were about 700 college-age kids that worked there. It's the largest outdoor camp in the world.

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And I just met all these people that grew up in, you know, like New York City

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or went to school at Stanford. I mean, they did all those big things.

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And that sort of enriched me.

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Enriched me seems wrong, but that definitely showed me there's more to the world

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than my little part of the high plains.

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And so that's how I got to where I got to.

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The reason I talked about it, I think, in this book is this book feels like

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I feel like I owed this book to people.

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And it really became really clear to me

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when we did that meeting in Australia and had

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these big discussions that the one part of this conversation that people haven't

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talked about was how to manage and facilitate change in the process of getting

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an organization to move from seeing safety as a noun to seeing safety as a verb.

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If we can kind of coin Eric's idea, moving from safety to safely,

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I think is how Eric says that.

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And so I thought I should probably just write down some things that I've always

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thought were really important and see where that sort of lands.

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And some of those things definitely came from growing up in western Kansas.

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So Kansas to meeting all those folks.

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And I hear what you're saying there. That's kind of like the effect travel has going anywhere.

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Right. Yeah, totally. And, and I happen to know that some lifelong friendships

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were cemented there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

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I'll have great friends, but we skipped a couple of steps from that camp to Wollongong. Yeah.

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How can you fill in a bit between that camp experience and Los Alamos, maybe?

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Well, yeah. So I was teaching school in Denver, teaching university in Denver.

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So because I worked at this Philmont place, I wanted to have my summers open.

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And so the one way you can guarantee your summers are open is never stop going to university.

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And quite honestly, Jeff, between you and I, I think I would have stayed in

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university. university, I'd probably still be in university.

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They kind of kick you out after a while. They make you take a degree and leave

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because they get tired of you.

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But because I wanted to stay in university, I just kept working on my degree.

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And so when I finished my bachelor's degree, I went right into a master's program.

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And partially, I think, because I didn't want to get a job. I mean,

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the idea of owning something that wouldn't fit in my car was really unappealing.

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I mean, really unappealing. Because I think my vision for myself,

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and I'm not sure this has changed much, is that I would probably just always

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kind of be mobile. I would always be moving.

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And that every place is interesting. And no one place is interesting enough to hold you there.

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I've changed my thinking on that a little bit now.

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So I was teaching in Denver because that was a really good job.

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And it was very fun to work there.

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And I was having a great time. And Los Alamos National Laboratory had a big

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labor strike with actually with their protective force, with the security people.

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And so I made a phone call to the labor person.

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And I really to this day don't know why I did this.

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But I asked them what their plan was for restoration.

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Because I remember on the phone with this guy telling him, you know,

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every strike eventually gets over.

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It doesn't feel like they're going to get over, but they always end.

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And when they end, what's your transition plan? And he said,

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we don't really have one.

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And I said, that's something that you should be thinking about.

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And probably that sort of fit into what I was teaching at the time because I

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was working a lot with that kind of business communication around significant

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events like labor unions and stuff.

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And the guy said, well, come up and see me and talk to me.

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But then he just said, but this isn't a job interview. And I said,

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well, that's okay, because I'm not really looking for a job.

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And so I went back to New Mexico, which I'd spent every summer for 13 years in New Mexico.

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I went up to Los Alamos and I talked to the guy and we were supposed to talk for an hour.

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And we ended up talking for like the whole afternoon, so like five hours.

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And by the time I left, he had offered me a job and I had accepted the job.

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So then that brought me into Los Alamos. And I really did.

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I came in on the labor side, the labor relations side.

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And actually worked to help provide transition from the very,

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very toxic environment that a strike creates to an environment where you could

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actually perform mission.

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Because Los Alamos is a real mission essential place.

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I mean, and security is a really important part of that. So that went really

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well. And out of that, I ended up doing a lot of work with leadership training.

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And then very early in my career, this guy, John Sung was his name.

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He came up to me and he was an important name in the Department of Energy.

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And he had been in Washington, D.C. a long time.

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So he was quite influential. influential he came up

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to me and he said what do you think about this human performance

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discussion that's happening within the

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doe and i'd not heard anything about it so what i did was act like i heard about

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it because that's how i mean it's work so i mean you know exactly so i said

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well you know i i've i've been listening to it and i'm super interested in it

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but i don't know you know i I don't have a lot of details on it at this point in time right now.

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And he said, I think it's something we should be looking into.

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And that sort of started the journey on the human performance part.

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And we met with a couple people at the time.

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The names that sort of – there's a bunch of names that I should list here because

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I hate to leave anybody out.

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But like Shane Bush had already started –.

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He was a little ahead of Los Alamos at his laboratory, and they had started

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the journey probably a year before us.

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And so they had a little better understanding of what was happening,

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and we almost immediately took a trip to INPO and sat with Tony Moshara because

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that's when he was at INPO, and we started talking about these ideas.

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Is and it became it became

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well it obviously became what happened is

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that it sort of caught some traction but it

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was a very interesting journey because we knew so little

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back then and we were learning and we were definitely getting information from

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some scholars the names are almost the same you know back then jim reason was

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kind of the the granddaddy of everything and And so a lot of stuff came from Reason's work.

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And we started looking, you know, really across the disciplines for things we

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could pick up on. And it was a pretty interesting journey.

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Wow, that's fascinating. So many of us have gone back and sort of learned all

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that stuff because ultimately you did, you know.

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And then you took that forward and, for me at least, created that curiosity

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back and looking at that.

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That so going through that

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work at some point i mean the five principles were published in

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what 2019 right probably something

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like that yeah i don't have it in front of me but maybe and so

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but this this notion of you know this thing they call hot sort of evolved out

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of that space and i think that's an important call out the most i think a lot

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of people out there might think that it that notion kind of began with the publication

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of that book but in fact you were spending all all this time back in the roots of this HP piece.

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And at some point in that.

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You brought yourself to it and wanted to evolve it, it sounds.

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And that evolution process probably began sometime before it manifested into

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the Principles book, yeah?

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Yeah, oh, for sure. Like the Five Principles book, that's wild.

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I never thought about people thinking that was an origin document.

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The Five Principles book is really, first of all, it's the summation of the

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journey we had been on that far.

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I don't think it's the final summation by any stretch, but it was sort of –

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it became really clear that over the last 20 or 25 years that the principles

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that we began with had morphed.

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No. Yeah, no, morphed. I guess I don't really know what morphed means,

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but that's what smart people say.

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They had changed not because the principles were wrong, but because we had become so much smarter.

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Smarter and so many people had learned so

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many things i mean the one thing that i think it's

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worth repeating a million times over and over again is nobody

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has individual ownership to an idea in the space like human performance because

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it's a multi-disciplinary kind of holistic view there are no single owners to

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ideas it's really a result of the community And the larger community,

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the bigger and bigger and bigger community, that these ideas have sort of taken root and matured.

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And so the book in 2019 – and the funny thing is I wrote that book because I

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was kind of angry, not at anyone.

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But I was really angry that we were drifting away from the first principles.

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And so I ask, why am I upset that lots of places aren't doing the fundamentals training?

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They're just jumping right into tools. Because we know, after 25 years,

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ask anybody who's been on this

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journey a long time, that if you just start with tools, you will fail.

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You have to shift the thinking. It's really moving safety to a practice.

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We used to say it was a philosophical change. And it is a philosophical change,

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but what it really is, is moving safety from a program to a practice to something that you, you do right.

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And, and that's so obvious now, but at the time that was not that obvious.

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I mean, that was, people were, that was a big deal and it gave people little heart attacks.

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What is it? They say that the path is always obvious when you look back at it.

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Yeah. Yeah. I'm a genius.

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I'm a genius in retrospect. Your whole journey started by that one business

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principle there when that fella directed you to the HP stuff.

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And that is what interests the boss fascinates the shit out of me. It's totally true, too.

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And the funny thing is, is that I wasn't I genuinely was not interested in in what I thought it was.

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And I was genuinely not interested in the moving full time into safety.

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Safety and i realized in retrospect that that

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was the leadership saw something

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there that they wanted to tap into and so they and i remember saying well you

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know when they asked me to go over full time and do it i said well you know

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i thank you for that offer but right now i'm and they're like oh you must be

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confused we didn't mean to say this was optional this is your assignment, bingo.

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And that was a pretty good move. And what's funny is that the Five Principles

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book is really a maturation of the principles based upon all the.

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Incredible work, both practical and academic, that was being done around these ideas.

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And some things, well, for instance, the one I would use as an example,

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Jeff, is that humans are fallible. People make mistakes.

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The original understanding of that 30 years ago was that if we could identify

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every error-likely condition and remove or replace it, the outcome would be reducing error.

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And what's funny is that back then that was really compelling.

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But now everybody realizes that error is really normal and it's not a choice

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and you could have the best system in the world and still have mistakes.

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And so now instead of reducing or replacing error, we're really much more prone

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to talk about error tolerance, recovery, resilience, a lot of David Wood stuff,

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which is brilliant stuff.

00:18:05.468 --> 00:18:12.828
And we needed to retool our principles so that it was more reflective of those ideas. Yeah.

00:18:13.488 --> 00:18:17.088
It's amazing. You're right. You know, the lineage of all this conversation and

00:18:17.088 --> 00:18:21.848
then, you know, folks come along and add context or bring themselves to it or

00:18:21.848 --> 00:18:25.128
tie in other facets and the space evolves, right?

00:18:25.248 --> 00:18:29.288
Yeah, totally. So where in this journey did your PhD happen then?

00:18:29.628 --> 00:18:34.248
Oh, so pretty quickly after I got to Los Alamos.

00:18:34.508 --> 00:18:40.808
So I never thought I'd won it. I mean, the idea of getting a PhD was super unattractive,

00:18:40.828 --> 00:18:45.008
but it became a smarter thing to do.

00:18:45.268 --> 00:18:50.448
And part of the thing at a place like Los Alamos is that everybody had a PhD.

00:18:51.648 --> 00:18:56.588
Now, that didn't mean I felt peer pressure to get one, but what it did mean

00:18:56.588 --> 00:19:00.248
is that the community I was working with, my peers and coworkers,

00:19:00.548 --> 00:19:07.148
were incredibly supportive of it and knew what it meant and what it would do

00:19:07.148 --> 00:19:12.668
and how the journey would be really significant and fun for me.

00:19:12.748 --> 00:19:13.628
And they were exactly right.

00:19:13.768 --> 00:19:18.808
I mean, I had a great time. And so I got the Ph.D., but I totally lucked out on that Ph.D.

00:19:19.428 --> 00:19:25.608
Because I'd actually aligned with a program at the University of Texas and was

00:19:25.608 --> 00:19:27.648
going to commute to Austin.

00:19:28.408 --> 00:19:31.808
Actually, this was all kind of set up to commute to Austin.

00:19:31.908 --> 00:19:34.528
And I went in for a final interview with the department chair,

00:19:34.708 --> 00:19:38.928
and the department chair said, why aren't you studying with Everett Rogers?

00:19:38.928 --> 00:19:46.808
And I said, well, because he's at Annenberg at UCLA and the chair said,

00:19:46.928 --> 00:19:50.028
no, he's in Albuquerque at the University of New Mexico.

00:19:50.976 --> 00:19:54.696
And I said, I did not know that because that is not my community.

00:19:55.156 --> 00:20:00.016
And he said, you ought to talk to him. And so I immediately flew back from Austin,

00:20:00.256 --> 00:20:04.156
made an appointment, and went to Albuquerque and met with Everett Rogers.

00:20:04.836 --> 00:20:11.856
And he was incredibly supportive, and he encouraged me to apply.

00:20:12.076 --> 00:20:15.516
And you should know that the first year I applied, I didn't get in.

00:20:17.116 --> 00:20:20.476
Actually, yeah, just the first year. I think I got in the next year.

00:20:20.976 --> 00:20:25.616
But he was very encouraging, and I think he did that kind of to humble me a little.

00:20:25.976 --> 00:20:33.176
So then I got in, and that was really lucky because Rogers is – he was amazing.

00:20:33.596 --> 00:20:39.956
So you know where I'm going with this is that you do show the curve.

00:20:40.196 --> 00:20:44.216
Yeah, the diffusion current. And what's fascinating – and I wanted to just –

00:20:44.216 --> 00:20:48.516
thanks for doing that. I wanted to do a bit of the backstory because this is

00:20:48.516 --> 00:20:53.116
a hop-adjacent organizational change book.

00:20:53.816 --> 00:20:58.216
Yeah, and I think that's – so that's true. And that was kind of the goal.

00:20:58.556 --> 00:21:05.116
That's the thing. I really felt like I owed this to the gang.

00:21:05.656 --> 00:21:10.496
It's timely. Just because everybody was saying, well, you know,

00:21:10.536 --> 00:21:12.636
how do I make this change happen?

00:21:12.736 --> 00:21:15.396
How do I make it stick? And I would always say, well, you know,

00:21:15.396 --> 00:21:19.276
there's a whole body of knowledge around this. I mean, you don't have to reinvent this.

00:21:19.376 --> 00:21:23.296
There are people who, you know, Peter Senge and Everett Rogers,

00:21:23.476 --> 00:21:27.216
there are people who really understand how organizations function and they understand

00:21:27.216 --> 00:21:29.996
a lot about change. Yeah, buddy.

00:21:30.736 --> 00:21:35.236
So putting the curve in the book and speaking to that.

00:21:35.356 --> 00:21:39.796
And so can you talk a bit about, and that's so on point, right?

00:21:39.896 --> 00:21:42.416
With everything kind of comes full circle, right?

00:21:42.576 --> 00:21:45.656
Right. from that experience. So talk a bit about that.

00:21:45.676 --> 00:21:49.416
Talk a bit about that curve of diffusion and what that's done to your thinking

00:21:49.416 --> 00:21:52.336
here in helping folks successfully integrate.

00:21:52.536 --> 00:21:55.796
So Everett Rogers grew up in Iowa and he's a scholar.

00:21:55.936 --> 00:22:00.556
And if you want to look him up, you should. Everett Rogers, his most famous

00:22:00.556 --> 00:22:04.596
book, and he has many books, but his most famous book is called The Diffusion of Innovation.

00:22:05.036 --> 00:22:10.196
And it's a really important book. It's hugely popular among academics.

00:22:10.536 --> 00:22:14.496
It's incredibly well written, which is one of the reasons it's such an important book.

00:22:14.676 --> 00:22:21.736
And he basically spent his lifetime researching how hybrid seed corn,

00:22:22.616 --> 00:22:29.776
was diffused among farmers in the middle of North America, both Canada and the United States.

00:22:29.936 --> 00:22:35.496
So any place that grew corn, he was able then, because the data set was really

00:22:35.496 --> 00:22:41.876
easy to get hold of, he was able to sort of study how new hybrid technologies.

00:22:42.757 --> 00:22:49.217
Types. I almost said models, but I don't think it's models. Hybrid types of corn were diffused.

00:22:49.417 --> 00:22:54.597
And so corn is really interesting and it's always been hybridized.

00:22:54.637 --> 00:22:59.597
I mean, since prehistoric times, I mean, it's a really interesting plant.

00:22:59.977 --> 00:23:05.637
And he was able to do that. And in doing that, he was able to study this idea

00:23:05.637 --> 00:23:09.777
of how new ideas move amongst groups of people.

00:23:10.117 --> 00:23:13.857
And if you're not I'm not familiar with the diffusion curve.

00:23:13.977 --> 00:23:18.597
It's kind of an S curve, sort of. And it starts with innovators,

00:23:18.717 --> 00:23:23.637
and then it has early adopters, and then it has the middle people.

00:23:23.737 --> 00:23:25.997
I don't remember what the middle people are called, like normal,

00:23:26.277 --> 00:23:31.417
early normal, late normals. Is that it? I'm making that up kind of. Oh, no, majority.

00:23:31.877 --> 00:23:37.697
Early majority, late majority. And then the last people to accept a change he calls laggards.

00:23:37.937 --> 00:23:40.837
Right. And folks that still have a rotary dial phone. Right, exactly.

00:23:41.137 --> 00:23:44.557
And none of those places are necessarily bad or good.

00:23:45.137 --> 00:23:49.617
They're just predictable. And what's so interesting is you can see that very

00:23:49.617 --> 00:23:55.357
same thing happening within organizations, certainly happening within industries.

00:23:55.637 --> 00:23:59.337
I mean, if you look at oil and gas or you look at steel construction,

00:23:59.797 --> 00:24:05.877
you can tell who the early adopter companies are, who the innovator companies

00:24:05.877 --> 00:24:08.757
are, because they're out there in the front trying new stuff.

00:24:08.757 --> 00:24:11.837
And then they bring with them the rest of the community.

00:24:12.037 --> 00:24:16.397
Well, that same thing holds true in your organization is that you have those

00:24:16.397 --> 00:24:18.877
very same people and they're kind of predictable.

00:24:19.017 --> 00:24:22.737
And his data shows that you can count on those.

00:24:22.837 --> 00:24:29.657
What Rogers then did with that is say we have to have different strategies to

00:24:29.657 --> 00:24:32.817
facilitate change for those populations.

00:24:33.617 --> 00:24:40.017
So innovators need very little convincing because they're always willing to try the newest thing.

00:24:40.137 --> 00:24:43.597
And everybody listening knows somebody who's an innovator. They have the newest

00:24:43.597 --> 00:24:45.197
phone. They have the newest watch.

00:24:45.457 --> 00:24:47.977
They have the newest camera. I mean, everything's new.

00:24:48.842 --> 00:24:54.702
But their strategy is different than it would be for the late majority or the early majority, right?

00:24:54.802 --> 00:24:59.482
And so you're able to sort of strategize and manage change through the organization

00:24:59.482 --> 00:25:01.342
by sort of understanding where people are.

00:25:01.502 --> 00:25:06.442
And it was really, really helpful. He then took that on to the whole idea of

00:25:06.442 --> 00:25:11.982
social networks and then eventually went to the whole kind of six degrees of separation,

00:25:12.242 --> 00:25:17.822
that there are only six people between you and a fruit seller in New Delhi,

00:25:18.022 --> 00:25:21.722
which is the original thesis for the six degrees of separation.

00:25:22.162 --> 00:25:28.242
And then they're able to do that network study and understand how that connection works.

00:25:28.562 --> 00:25:30.742
And that connection is really fundamental for change.

00:25:31.102 --> 00:25:35.262
That's amazing. I had no idea Kevin Bacon was from New Delhi.

00:25:35.362 --> 00:25:37.962
Yeah, Kevin Bacon is a fruit seller in New Delhi.

00:25:40.782 --> 00:25:46.962
So that's fantastic. I think that the past works have been about the subject

00:25:46.962 --> 00:25:51.702
matter and kind of alluded to organizational change.

00:25:51.702 --> 00:25:57.422
And this piece is really, I think, I'm really keen to tell my friends and so

00:25:57.422 --> 00:26:01.702
on about this because it's, I think it's organizational change first,

00:26:01.902 --> 00:26:03.422
you know, and it's hop adjacent.

00:26:03.462 --> 00:26:06.882
It's got that specific hop flavor to doing it.

00:26:06.962 --> 00:26:11.722
So I think the clarity, that kind of background and that science you're bringing

00:26:11.722 --> 00:26:18.482
to it and then helping folks in a current kind of end of 2024 kind of way talk about this.

00:26:18.482 --> 00:26:24.302
Yes. So like you make a point in there about talking and acting our way to change.

00:26:24.402 --> 00:26:27.922
And I that really resonated with me, as you know, because,

00:26:27.982 --> 00:26:31.162
you know, we've been talking, you and I've been talking a lot this year about

00:26:31.162 --> 00:26:37.302
did we inadvertently front end load a hurdle by going in with all this body

00:26:37.302 --> 00:26:41.182
of knowledge and making it this big concept that people have to get their heads

00:26:41.182 --> 00:26:44.282
around before they even get the courage to do anything? thing.

00:26:44.422 --> 00:26:47.322
And, you know, I wonder if we inadvertently created obstacles.

00:26:47.442 --> 00:26:51.462
So when, in this piece, you talk about, you know, it's very important to give those foundations.

00:26:51.542 --> 00:26:56.062
You can't give foundations to leadership enough times, but you're talking now

00:26:56.062 --> 00:27:00.462
about also acting our way into new ideas with small experiments and things like

00:27:00.462 --> 00:27:02.222
that. So I think it's really important.

00:27:03.022 --> 00:27:06.562
It's really important that you have to, the combination between thinking and

00:27:06.562 --> 00:27:09.002
acting is really strong. They're different activities.

00:27:09.382 --> 00:27:12.742
So thinking is thinking and acting is acting, And they're not the same.

00:27:12.822 --> 00:27:15.202
You're not acting while you're thinking. You're not thinking while you're acting.

00:27:15.382 --> 00:27:16.862
I mean, they're very different processes.

00:27:17.602 --> 00:27:21.642
And the way you facilitate change is you either think people into being different

00:27:21.642 --> 00:27:25.062
or you act people into being different. But the best way is to do both.

00:27:25.342 --> 00:27:28.962
And so when we offer new ideas, we also have to offer new actions.

00:27:29.622 --> 00:27:34.582
So we tell them, ask different questions. And then we say, and one question

00:27:34.582 --> 00:27:37.982
you can ask is instead of looking for where risk is high, look for where control

00:27:37.982 --> 00:27:40.522
is low. Right? So we've given them a thought.

00:27:41.407 --> 00:27:45.047
And then we've given them the background and activity around that thought.

00:27:45.227 --> 00:27:46.287
And so that's really important.

00:27:46.647 --> 00:27:50.527
And that's kind of – this book is – so I'm not in love with this book by any

00:27:50.527 --> 00:27:51.267
stretch of the imagination.

00:27:51.767 --> 00:27:57.367
It's basically a bunch of lists that are bound by a couple of poorly written paragraphs.

00:27:58.827 --> 00:28:04.527
I mean, because this book is more – I wanted to list out things.

00:28:05.267 --> 00:28:08.147
Think about this. Think about this. Think about this. Think about this.

00:28:08.427 --> 00:28:11.227
And then some transition. Okay, now think about this. Think about this.

00:28:11.227 --> 00:28:14.227
Think about this and that's a little it's a little listy and

00:28:14.227 --> 00:28:17.227
it's super listy and i'm getting to

00:28:17.227 --> 00:28:23.267
that because you kind of end on the list in the book which i think i'm i have

00:28:23.267 --> 00:28:28.047
a note here called the list in all caps i want to talk about so so talking and

00:28:28.047 --> 00:28:32.907
acting love it the other thing too i don't know i don't think it's as controversial

00:28:32.907 --> 00:28:36.887
as the fries comment but you talk about being one GM away.

00:28:37.607 --> 00:28:42.667
And that, you know, that adds to that Sisyphusian. Sisyphusian?

00:28:43.227 --> 00:28:46.487
I've been trying to struggle with that too.

00:28:46.847 --> 00:28:51.647
So I think that's, so I can't ever believe that that's really controversial people.

00:28:51.787 --> 00:28:56.327
It is. People get really upset when you say, basically what I say is every organization's

00:28:56.327 --> 00:29:03.207
one executive, one CEO away from starting again. in. And because I think it's true.

00:29:03.447 --> 00:29:06.027
I mean, I never thought of it as offensive.

00:29:06.647 --> 00:29:10.847
I mean, I guess it is. I mean, actually, I can't even really make it offensive

00:29:10.847 --> 00:29:12.967
now, but I know it offends people.

00:29:13.087 --> 00:29:17.027
They get really upset by it. But the thing is, is that the new boss is going

00:29:17.027 --> 00:29:22.507
to come in and redirect the energy of the organization towards the new boss's

00:29:22.507 --> 00:29:24.767
plan, The new boss's goals.

00:29:25.247 --> 00:29:32.987
And oftentimes that means they'll want to go back to really name, blame, shame, retrain.

00:29:33.067 --> 00:29:37.167
They'll want to go back to, you know, standard accountability matrices.

00:29:37.387 --> 00:29:42.887
They'll want to go back to, you know, do it my way or it's the highway.

00:29:43.607 --> 00:29:49.107
And it takes some time to sort of shift that boss to the new thinking.

00:29:49.107 --> 00:29:53.847
And a strong culture will win, but it's still going to be a painful exercise.

00:29:54.387 --> 00:29:58.787
And it's tough at that level, for sure. But I don't think that's bad news.

00:29:58.887 --> 00:30:01.327
I just think that's news. We should know that.

00:30:02.067 --> 00:30:05.287
You know, when you're saying that, I don't – I know what you mean by offensive.

00:30:05.367 --> 00:30:06.947
I just think it was maybe triggering.

00:30:07.367 --> 00:30:10.807
Well, yeah, triggering is maybe a better word. But it kind of makes people like

00:30:10.807 --> 00:30:13.047
they get really upset when I say it.

00:30:13.087 --> 00:30:17.347
And I don't – I'm always shocked by it because it doesn't seem that upsetting

00:30:17.347 --> 00:30:19.847
to me. I mean, it just seems kind of like, yeah, this is what we got.

00:30:20.087 --> 00:30:22.547
I think by calling it out, and then I think...

00:30:23.241 --> 00:30:28.901
This book helps folks. I think it's going to back folks up because it is precarious.

00:30:28.921 --> 00:30:31.301
It feels like a precarious journey people are going on.

00:30:31.481 --> 00:30:36.501
And so that triggering is like, oh, geez, yeah, like all this could go out the window overnight.

00:30:36.941 --> 00:30:44.441
I got a parallel kind of question to that one GM away from eating fries in and out. Yeah.

00:30:45.141 --> 00:30:48.401
But the other one is that, and this, this is a shout out to my buddy,

00:30:48.461 --> 00:30:52.881
James, who, who was, who asked me this, but you know, a lot of companies these

00:30:52.881 --> 00:30:54.421
days, a lot of acquisitions, yeah.

00:30:54.861 --> 00:30:58.721
Companies that grow by acquisition and so it's not quite the same thing,

00:30:58.761 --> 00:31:02.301
but, but it, it, that's an interesting piece too, for folks that are really

00:31:02.301 --> 00:31:03.621
trying to champion. What would you?

00:31:03.801 --> 00:31:06.521
Well, certainly feels like it depends on which side of the acquisition you're

00:31:06.521 --> 00:31:09.921
on. So if you're being acquired, everything changes.

00:31:10.321 --> 00:31:13.441
And it's funny because they, they do so much lip service. You know,

00:31:13.461 --> 00:31:15.261
we're going to really try to keep things the same here.

00:31:15.401 --> 00:31:18.801
And we're going to try to integrate our company with your culture and blah,

00:31:18.821 --> 00:31:21.481
blah, blah, blah. And I'm sure they mean all those things.

00:31:21.681 --> 00:31:25.721
The problem is, is that eventually as the new systems come rolling down,

00:31:25.801 --> 00:31:28.721
because they're going to want to all use the same timekeeping system and the

00:31:28.721 --> 00:31:31.941
same blah, blah system and the same investigations, right?

00:31:32.101 --> 00:31:36.241
As those new systems roll down, they really are a huge intervention into the organization.

00:31:36.741 --> 00:31:40.281
And so we have to think about how are we going to manage leverage really safety

00:31:40.281 --> 00:31:42.221
and reliability during this acquisition.

00:31:42.401 --> 00:31:47.361
So on the acquired side, I think quite honestly, know that if you're being acquired,

00:31:47.601 --> 00:31:51.301
that the seas are going to get really rough. Events are going to increase.

00:31:51.961 --> 00:31:55.341
You're going to have some outcomes that you don't want as an organization,

00:31:55.601 --> 00:31:59.321
some operational upsets, and you need to be prepared for that and make sure

00:31:59.321 --> 00:32:00.241
that's a part of the conversation.

00:32:00.701 --> 00:32:04.561
If you're an acquirer, I guess I'm making these terms up,

00:32:04.661 --> 00:32:11.501
then I think I think it really behooves you to go in and think consciously about

00:32:11.501 --> 00:32:16.441
how you've created an environment where the acquired company can succeed in your world.

00:32:17.219 --> 00:32:22.319
And I think it's a morally important question to ask, have we given them what

00:32:22.319 --> 00:32:25.639
they need to succeed in our environment?

00:32:26.279 --> 00:32:29.299
Because they're not going to magically discover this.

00:32:29.419 --> 00:32:34.659
There's not like a secret bean that you can plant that will build a ladder to the new company.

00:32:35.119 --> 00:32:39.279
Have we created the environment where the new people can be successful?

00:32:39.539 --> 00:32:43.259
And so that's a really important question. And it's beautiful because,

00:32:43.319 --> 00:32:47.839
you know, we've talked a little bit about over this year, this eventful year,

00:32:47.899 --> 00:32:50.479
that it's been about practicing what we preach, right?

00:32:50.559 --> 00:32:57.019
So a lot of people talk about this hop concepts thing, but not a lot of folks

00:32:57.019 --> 00:33:03.119
think about how they can use those concepts in the integration efforts they're doing.

00:33:03.299 --> 00:33:08.359
Yeah. And yet there's parallels there, right? Right. And everybody's experience levels are different.

00:33:08.359 --> 00:33:11.579
Different and and you know it behooves

00:33:11.579 --> 00:33:14.539
us to do what's right to to do

00:33:14.539 --> 00:33:17.279
what makes the world a better place i mean we might as

00:33:17.279 --> 00:33:20.279
well given the choice why not choose to do

00:33:20.279 --> 00:33:23.059
things that'll make everything better there's a

00:33:23.059 --> 00:33:27.479
lot of behooving today we're doing a lot of behooving we want

00:33:27.479 --> 00:33:30.799
to do more bespoking all right the

00:33:30.799 --> 00:33:34.139
list now what what when i

00:33:34.139 --> 00:33:36.979
first asked you about this and i said what's different

00:33:36.979 --> 00:33:39.979
about this and you said the lists this is a

00:33:39.979 --> 00:33:42.759
pretty cool list i gotta say like when i

00:33:42.759 --> 00:33:45.439
first read it it's a list yeah it makes sense and i've looked at it

00:33:45.439 --> 00:33:48.859
again it's a good list man and so

00:33:48.859 --> 00:33:53.019
tsa that you you know you go through this background on this piece it's a it's

00:33:53.019 --> 00:33:58.139
a it's a org change for hop kind of book uh more than this i'd say a hop specific

00:33:58.139 --> 00:34:02.619
right i agree and and you and you back it up and you you conclude on this awesome

00:34:02.619 --> 00:34:05.659
piece this what is it 15 15 point list.

00:34:06.139 --> 00:34:12.179
Right. Okay. Tell, tell us about why the list, because you don't normally do that, right?

00:34:12.279 --> 00:34:15.999
No, never, never. Because I don't think, I don't think that's that fun to read.

00:34:16.886 --> 00:34:21.186
I mean, it's, it's, it's, you know, the book should kind of have a beginning, a middle and an end.

00:34:21.546 --> 00:34:24.426
It should sort of make sense. They should develop. This book doesn't really

00:34:24.426 --> 00:34:28.166
meet any of those tests very well, but it's the list I think is,

00:34:28.206 --> 00:34:32.266
it's a list that I keep in my notebook all the time.

00:34:32.626 --> 00:34:37.226
And it's things that I try to remember myself, like, you know,

00:34:37.226 --> 00:34:40.746
like get started and that the, you know, start,

00:34:41.086 --> 00:34:46.006
it seems really obvious, but if you've been in an organization,

00:34:46.306 --> 00:34:53.006
you you know that the desire to wait for the perfect solution hinders the ability to create change.

00:34:53.506 --> 00:34:56.646
There is no perfect solution. There's never been a perfect solution.

00:34:56.766 --> 00:34:58.566
And everybody knows there's not a perfect solution.

00:34:58.826 --> 00:35:02.886
But we wait until we have like the best possible, you know, we can roll this

00:35:02.886 --> 00:35:06.986
out enterprise wide and that kind of stuff. Just start. I mean, just start.

00:35:07.766 --> 00:35:12.246
And think about the people. I mean, you have to create an environment where people can succeed.

00:35:12.486 --> 00:35:15.826
You have to create an environment where it's okay to fail. I mean,

00:35:15.866 --> 00:35:19.326
those ideas are really important ideas.

00:35:19.886 --> 00:35:25.486
We should be more additive and not replace-atory. I made that last term up.

00:35:25.826 --> 00:35:31.526
But when we change, we're not replacing old ideas with new ideas.

00:35:31.926 --> 00:35:37.766
We're actually adding more maturity and depth to old ideas.

00:35:42.466 --> 00:35:48.906
And is because of the old ideas that we couldn't have gotten here had we not done what we did.

00:35:49.346 --> 00:35:53.626
So I don't know. It just seemed like an interesting thing to do.

00:35:54.623 --> 00:36:01.663
I dig it because it's a timely conversation as more and more organizations and

00:36:01.663 --> 00:36:05.123
safety folks are trying to take their organizations on this journey.

00:36:05.303 --> 00:36:10.443
And I think that, yes, it's not a great saga at the beginning and the middle

00:36:10.443 --> 00:36:14.483
and the end, but it's coming out at the right time with the right information in it.

00:36:14.523 --> 00:36:18.363
And what you just spoke of, I mean, there was those and there's like 11 or 12

00:36:18.363 --> 00:36:24.443
other bullets on this list that are just wall worthy. They're office cubicle worthy.

00:36:24.623 --> 00:36:27.383
Of how'd you how'd you feel about the pushing the

00:36:27.383 --> 00:36:30.363
rock up a hill idea because i i think that's pretty accurate

00:36:30.363 --> 00:36:33.823
for what we do actually well that's we'd use

00:36:33.823 --> 00:36:38.503
not to be depressing but well no well yeah well you think you're getting it

00:36:38.503 --> 00:36:43.203
right you think you're you think you're successful oh yeah but but that i that

00:36:43.203 --> 00:36:46.763
totally struck me that's why i name dropped james earlier is that is that he

00:36:46.763 --> 00:36:52.543
and i had had that very conversation you know so i just think it's timely and it's It's right on.

00:36:52.563 --> 00:36:54.963
I think people are going to dig it. Thanks, Jeff. People are going to dig the list.

00:36:55.623 --> 00:36:59.223
So, you know, I'm a pushover, though, because that's probably why I'm doing this right now today.

00:36:59.743 --> 00:37:02.803
You're the only person I know that's read it. That's why you're doing it.

00:37:03.023 --> 00:37:07.983
And to be fair, we were just two guys huddled around a Kindle between Dallas and Vancouver.

00:37:08.023 --> 00:37:11.203
But I didn't even tell anybody it was out. It's amazing to me.

00:37:11.583 --> 00:37:16.723
Well, so I didn't, I don't know how to interview people about their books. You did great.

00:37:16.983 --> 00:37:19.903
But I did. Final question. Yes.

00:37:20.683 --> 00:37:24.443
Is, is what are your, what, what are your hopes? What do you,

00:37:24.443 --> 00:37:26.943
what do you hope this is going to do? Just help people.

00:37:27.683 --> 00:37:32.043
This is an earth shattering book. This won't be the best selling book ever written.

00:37:32.183 --> 00:37:33.483
I don't even want it to be.

00:37:34.003 --> 00:37:37.903
It's kind of a crappy book, but it's a crappy book with a bunch of good lists in it.

00:37:38.683 --> 00:37:42.283
I mean, and I mean that I don't mean that self, you know, I don't have that

00:37:42.283 --> 00:37:46.703
many ego problems, so that's not really my issue, but it's, it's just,

00:37:46.743 --> 00:37:48.543
it's got some good ideas in it.

00:37:49.343 --> 00:37:53.563
It almost just became a book of lists, but it, that seemed really bad.

00:37:53.783 --> 00:37:56.563
So, so I wrote some stuff and put it in there.

00:37:57.083 --> 00:37:59.583
So, well, thank you, man. Thanks for doing this, Jeff.

00:38:00.143 --> 00:38:02.223
Anytime, brother. You are the best.

00:38:02.800 --> 00:38:13.202
Music.