PAPod 518 - Navigating the Future of Workplace Safety: A Conversation with OSHA's Douglas L. Parker

WEBVTT 00:00:00.017 --> 00:00:06.997 I was recently asked at a conference why we care so much about total injury rates. 00:00:07.137 --> 00:00:13.197 And my response to the audience was, and it was predominantly employers, 00:00:13.557 --> 00:00:18.477 I really think it's you that care more about total injury rates than we. We'll be right back. 00:00:18.960 --> 00:00:31.120 Music.

00:00:30.397 --> 00:00:34.377 Hey, everybody. Todd Conklin, Pre-Accident Investigation Podcast. How are you? 00:00:35.037 --> 00:00:37.737 It is awfully good to have you on board for the pod.

00:00:37.837 --> 00:00:41.217 If this is your first pod, you're more than welcome. I'm glad to have you. 00:00:41.277 --> 00:00:44.037 If you've been around a long time, you know, an old hand at this, 00:00:44.177 --> 00:00:46.397 you kind of know what's going to happen. It's the drill.

00:00:46.817 --> 00:00:50.537 This pod is an interesting adventure. venture. 00:00:50.597 --> 00:00:56.077 You know, I've been telling you all year long, incredible lineup this year for the podcast. 00:00:56.477 --> 00:01:01.737 We have had some amazing pods.

We've had a lot of amazing pods over the thousand 00:01:01.737 --> 00:01:05.637 episodes or however, it's a lot. We've done this a lot. 00:01:05.857 --> 00:01:11.257 But today is an extra special day because I think you're going to enjoy it immensely. 00:01:11.977 --> 00:01:13.437 Because today we're going to talk 00:01:13.437 --> 00:01:18.117 to the Assistant Secretary of Labor for Occupational Safety and Health.

00:01:18.657 --> 00:01:23.077 We're going to talk to Douglas L. Parker, and he's the OSHA administrator. 00:01:23.477 --> 00:01:27.797 I think that's my term, not his term, but, you know, it's my podcast, 00:01:27.817 --> 00:01:29.637 so I can use the terms I want to. 00:01:29.957 --> 00:01:37.597 I had a remarkable, remarkable conversation, and I am so excited to invite you 00:01:37.597 --> 00:01:40.417 in and be a part of it.

It'll just be the three of us. 00:01:40.657 --> 00:01:43.497 It'll be the assistant secretary, myself, and you. 00:01:44.267 --> 00:01:47.507 And we're just going to talk a little bit about the future and what this looks 00:01:47.507 --> 00:01:53.447 like from not only our side of the safety and reliability equation, 00:01:53.727 --> 00:01:58.467 but from the regulatory side, the governance side of safety and reliability. 00:01:58.767 --> 00:02:03.087 And you'll be pleased to know that, you know, I got some questions in that I 00:02:03.087 --> 00:02:05.907 think you're going to want to have me ask.

00:02:06.067 --> 00:02:14.227 So I think I got my checklist checked off. But you'll have to be the ultimate judge of that. 00:02:14.307 --> 00:02:20.827 The one good news is that the assistant secretary definitely said he would be honored to come back. 00:02:21.007 --> 00:02:24.907 And I would really like to actually have him back because I'd really like to 00:02:24.907 --> 00:02:29.227 talk to him about fatalities and serious events, just specifically that topic, 00:02:29.427 --> 00:02:33.927 because I think that topic is that important.

Now, this is a long one. 00:02:34.207 --> 00:02:38.887 So, you know, I usually cut them in half, make them two-parters. 00:02:39.087 --> 00:02:43.747 But this one didn't lend itself very, it didn't seem like that would be the right thing to do. 00:02:43.867 --> 00:02:45.987 You know what I mean?

It seemed like that would be, that would, 00:02:46.047 --> 00:02:48.807 the word that comes to mind is that would truncate it. 00:02:49.127 --> 00:02:53.347 And I didn't think we wanted to truncate it just because it kind of hits a flow. 00:02:53.487 --> 00:02:54.867 You'll see. There's a flow.

00:02:55.267 --> 00:02:59.227 Yeah, you'll see it. And so that's going to be a big part of the conversation as well. all. 00:02:59.467 --> 00:03:03.267 This, I think, is a worthwhile use of your time.

00:03:03.627 --> 00:03:08.047 And again, it's just so pleasant to have you on board for this conversation. 00:03:08.407 --> 00:03:12.707 And you're absolutely invited in. I mean, this is why we do this, 00:03:12.767 --> 00:03:15.167 this very podcast for this reason. 00:03:15.207 --> 00:03:18.087 So if you will, please give a listen.

00:03:18.447 --> 00:03:24.387 It's just the three of us, you, myself, and the Assistant Secretary, Doug Parker. 00:03:24.767 --> 00:03:29.587 And we're going to have a conversation about safety and where we're heading. 00:03:34.567 --> 00:03:38.907 A complete treat, and I can't say that enough times to have you on board. 00:03:39.347 --> 00:03:44.187 As Assistant Secretary of Labor for Occupational Safety and Health, what's your job?

00:03:45.518 --> 00:03:53.078 Well, someone gave me the great advice that you shouldn't be doing something 00:03:53.078 --> 00:03:56.078 anybody else in your organization can do. 00:03:56.178 --> 00:04:01.578 You should be focused on the things that, as the leader, are really unique to you. 00:04:01.778 --> 00:04:05.798 Now, unfortunately, that doesn't work as well in government as it might in private 00:04:05.798 --> 00:04:11.778 sector because there are so many mandates and so many ministerial functions 00:04:11.778 --> 00:04:20.018 and so many needs to fill different gaps that it doesn't quite work out that way in practice. 00:04:20.678 --> 00:04:28.098 But I try to focus on setting a tone, setting a vision for the agency about 00:04:28.098 --> 00:04:31.738 the direction in which I believe that we ought to go.

00:04:31.738 --> 00:04:42.458 And my focus has always been on how to advance values-driven approaches to health 00:04:42.458 --> 00:04:47.438 and safety and to not only speak about that in terms of platitudes, 00:04:47.578 --> 00:04:55.118 but to find actionable things that we can do and that employers can do across 00:04:55.118 --> 00:05:00.318 our portfolio of work that reflect those values. use. 00:05:00.358 --> 00:05:06.658 So if it's an enforcement, it means looking at how we can not just abate hazards, 00:05:06.758 --> 00:05:09.038 but leave a workplace safer than we left it. 00:05:09.458 --> 00:05:14.538 How we can deal with a recalcitrant employer using all of our tools so that 00:05:14.538 --> 00:05:22.438 we have the proper deterrence in place and the means to intervene to prevent future worker harm.

00:05:23.198 --> 00:05:29.758 Whether that's criminal prosecutions or referrals, whether that's looking at 00:05:29.758 --> 00:05:35.378 imminent danger, whether that's high penalties, whether that's our severe violator program, 00:05:35.758 --> 00:05:41.558 using those tools appropriately to drive change. 00:05:41.838 --> 00:05:49.438 And then also looking at the huge untapped potential of our relationships with 00:05:49.438 --> 00:05:54.698 workers, workers, with unions, and certainly with employers, 00:05:54.938 --> 00:06:03.678 where we can use kind of soft power, the power of our voice to promote health 00:06:03.678 --> 00:06:05.618 and safety management systems, to promote, 00:06:06.358 --> 00:06:10.738 leadership on health and safety, to promote an integrated approach to improve 00:06:10.738 --> 00:06:15.318 organizational culture on health and safety, to get greater worker participation, 00:06:15.958 --> 00:06:18.918 recognizing that workers are 00:06:18.918 --> 00:06:22.318 have the most at stake and can make significant contributions if 00:06:22.318 --> 00:06:28.858 given the opportunity to make workplaces safer and and again to to to find systematic 00:06:28.858 --> 00:06:33.918 approaches to finding and fixing hazards so so it's a work in progress you know 00:06:33.918 --> 00:06:38.978 we've we worked on pieces of this we have pieces we're getting ready to roll out but it's. 00:06:39.865 --> 00:06:45.045 It is the greatest job. I feel like it's one of the greatest jobs in government.

00:06:45.165 --> 00:06:53.465 And I'm so happy to be able to do it every day and help workers and serve this incredible mission. 00:06:54.165 --> 00:07:01.225 How much, so there's clearly the two sides of the agency you talked about, 00:07:01.265 --> 00:07:06.045 the enforcement side, and then sort of the guidance and governance side. 00:07:06.245 --> 00:07:09.985 How much have you guys contemplated, especially in the last couple of years, 00:07:10.105 --> 00:07:13.005 because I have so many great things to talk to you about. I'm so excited you're here.

00:07:13.165 --> 00:07:18.365 How much have you contemplated the fact that the system in which sort of OSHA 00:07:18.365 --> 00:07:22.145 has created around total reportable cases, days away, 00:07:22.405 --> 00:07:27.725 the reporting numbers, that system is actually pretty much attuned to get the 00:07:27.725 --> 00:07:34.425 outcome it's getting, and that it's given the regulator kind of an antiquated 00:07:34.425 --> 00:07:36.885 understanding of risk operationally. 00:07:36.885 --> 00:07:38.905 And we kind of started this conversation. 00:07:39.025 --> 00:07:42.565 Then I said, we should record this. So I stopped and did this formal recording.

00:07:42.685 --> 00:07:43.765 But let's go right back to that. 00:07:43.925 --> 00:07:49.965 Because the most exciting thing for me is to understand kind of the unlucky 00:07:49.965 --> 00:07:52.065 lot you guys have as the regulator. 00:07:52.585 --> 00:07:57.165 Because you have to – the enforcement arm is really important and I think carries 00:07:57.165 --> 00:08:00.865 awesome responsibility and actually really helps. 00:08:00.865 --> 00:08:06.725 But it's the rest of the governance that actually creates the operational and 00:08:06.725 --> 00:08:13.185 regulatory context by which organizations are constantly monitored and making 00:08:13.185 --> 00:08:16.665 decisions based upon sort of what they think you guys want.

00:08:17.545 --> 00:08:20.225 How does that fit into the view of the future? 00:08:21.465 --> 00:08:24.865 Well, that's a really interesting question. You know, we... 00:08:26.398 --> 00:08:31.538 We operate with the information that we have, just like any other organization.

00:08:31.798 --> 00:08:39.098 And that has been primarily information that we have about injuries, 00:08:39.418 --> 00:08:42.438 specifically injuries, because we don't have great surveillance information 00:08:42.438 --> 00:08:45.578 nationally on occupational disease. 00:08:46.718 --> 00:08:52.498 And it has always been a pretty blunt instrument in terms of the data that we 00:08:52.498 --> 00:08:58.378 have. I will I will say that I am excited about the prospects of the increased 00:08:58.378 --> 00:09:00.558 injury and illness reporting. 00:09:00.878 --> 00:09:05.418 There's a you know, there's a pitfall that we would go deeper down the down 00:09:05.418 --> 00:09:11.858 the road of only looking at only looking at sort of past performance with, 00:09:11.938 --> 00:09:17.818 you know, and only looking at the universe of of of injuries.

00:09:17.818 --> 00:09:23.638 Injuries in, in a global sense, or I mean, in a, you know, or maybe a better 00:09:23.638 --> 00:09:27.658 word would say, would be in a, in an unstratified sense, right? 00:09:27.678 --> 00:09:33.298 But, but the, the information that we're obtaining, which will include injury reports, 00:09:33.858 --> 00:09:38.698 300 logs, it has the potential as we get more and more sophisticated in our 00:09:38.698 --> 00:09:45.558 capacity to analyze it, to really identify real risk within those numbers, 00:09:45.558 --> 00:09:48.018 rather than using our current approach. 00:09:48.218 --> 00:09:54.698 And so I think that what we're doing in the ITA space has that potential if we do it right. 00:09:56.088 --> 00:10:02.728 I was recently asked at a conference why we care so much about total injury rates.

00:10:02.888 --> 00:10:09.168 And my response to the audience was, and it was predominantly employers. 00:10:09.528 --> 00:10:14.768 I really think it's you that care more about total injury rates than we do, right? 00:10:14.888 --> 00:10:20.948 I mean, you know, it's not something that we certainly dwell on. 00:10:21.028 --> 00:10:23.668 I mean, we pay attention to it.

We pay more attention to DART rates. 00:10:23.668 --> 00:10:33.208 But we also want employers to understand that we want them looking at how they 00:10:33.208 --> 00:10:35.928 can improve their health and safety management systems, 00:10:36.088 --> 00:10:38.548 how they can take an organizational approach, 00:10:38.828 --> 00:10:45.368 how they can adopt as a core value health and safety of their workers, 00:10:45.608 --> 00:10:49.848 following the kind of principles that we've laid out. 00:10:49.848 --> 00:10:55.728 Because I believe if they do those things, compliance, or at least the most 00:10:55.728 --> 00:11:00.508 kind of legally perilous parts 00:11:00.508 --> 00:11:04.388 of compliance, will take care of themselves if they have a good system. 00:11:04.488 --> 00:11:08.908 I'm not saying they won't get citations ever, but I think that it's the best 00:11:08.908 --> 00:11:12.928 approach to making sure that they're in compliance with the law is to start 00:11:12.928 --> 00:11:15.148 with values and start with a system.

00:11:15.468 --> 00:11:19.748 Right. and be above the, and, you know, compliance is a floor, 00:11:19.888 --> 00:11:23.208 right? So we're really looking at a systems approach. 00:11:23.428 --> 00:11:26.548 And I think also that your injury and illness rates.

00:11:27.641 --> 00:11:31.721 Will take care of themselves as well. And that's encouraging to hear you say. 00:11:31.821 --> 00:11:38.301 Part of what I'm interested in is the definition of safety has really changed. 00:11:38.701 --> 00:11:43.781 And it's been changing for sure.

It's maturing or we're getting smarter. 00:11:44.021 --> 00:11:48.021 We're getting more experienced. I think we're understanding complexity of operations in a different way. 00:11:48.261 --> 00:11:53.601 But traditionally, we've defined safety success as the absence of injury, right?

00:11:53.721 --> 00:11:57.021 I mean, and that's kind of what those metrics measure, the absence of injury, 00:11:57.161 --> 00:12:00.841 we sort of hold a company accountable to the number of people they hurt. 00:12:01.001 --> 00:12:04.881 And the lower that number is, clearly, the better they are performing safely. 00:12:05.581 --> 00:12:09.281 What's happened, however, is organizations, especially organizations that are 00:12:09.281 --> 00:12:13.741 dealing with really high levels of risk or super high consequence of risk, 00:12:13.941 --> 00:12:18.441 they've kind of been less than satisfied with that traditional definition. 00:12:18.841 --> 00:12:22.921 And now they really define safety as the presence of capability, 00:12:22.921 --> 00:12:26.201 responsibility not the absence of harm 00:12:26.201 --> 00:12:29.141 and so they start to actually look for 00:12:29.141 --> 00:12:32.121 and measure the capacity that the 00:12:32.121 --> 00:12:38.321 organization has to do work safely and what's happened and it's so interesting 00:12:38.321 --> 00:12:43.361 to me and i'm a hundred percent curious what you guys are thinking is that we've 00:12:43.361 --> 00:12:44.981 really moved safety from a 00:12:44.981 --> 00:12:50.281 program to a practice now i would suggest it's always been in a practice.

00:12:50.861 --> 00:12:56.461 But we've looked at it as if it were an individual, almost stratified part of 00:12:56.461 --> 00:12:58.641 an organization that was in charge of safety. 00:12:59.081 --> 00:13:05.301 That's changing. And to a great extent, it feels like that puts you in a position 00:13:05.301 --> 00:13:07.961 where you either have to catch up or double down. 00:13:08.621 --> 00:13:14.261 And by catch up, I don't mean the red sauce that we use in finer restaurants.

I mean, catch up. 00:13:14.661 --> 00:13:17.121 Sorry, I am from Western Kansas. That's how it comes out. 00:13:18.901 --> 00:13:24.081 Well, you know, I, yeah, that's, that's a kind of profound question for us, right?

00:13:24.161 --> 00:13:28.321 How do we, how do we, how do we adapt? 00:13:28.721 --> 00:13:34.161 How do we stay true to the OSHA Act while doing, doing that? 00:13:34.561 --> 00:13:38.801 And I believe that the, the content is there in the OSHA Act. 00:13:38.861 --> 00:13:43.821 If you read the preamble, you know, if you start with, you know, start with section two.

00:13:43.901 --> 00:13:50.421 It presents a very holistic approach that includes partnerships between labor 00:13:50.421 --> 00:13:52.761 management and government. 00:13:53.381 --> 00:13:56.561 It talks about understanding the health and safety, you know, 00:13:56.561 --> 00:14:00.281 the problem of health and safety and injury and illness in this country. 00:14:01.301 --> 00:14:06.521 It talks about surveillance. It talks about partnership with NIOSH, 00:14:06.561 --> 00:14:12.801 although not, I don't I remember it's, you know, Nyasha is named later in the statute, I think.

00:14:12.861 --> 00:14:19.801 But it presents a, I think, a dynamic approach if you look at it. 00:14:19.861 --> 00:14:27.241 And so it's, what we can do is adopt ideas. 00:14:28.379 --> 00:14:31.479 Incremental improvements that go, 00:14:31.599 --> 00:14:39.119 that head in the direction of this kind of new way of, new view of, 00:14:39.139 --> 00:14:45.639 if you will, of health and safety within the context of our enforcement program. 00:14:45.919 --> 00:14:54.219 So, for example, we are, you know, when we adjusted our severe violator program, which.

00:14:54.859 --> 00:14:59.579 Which many of your listeners probably know, but this is the system by which 00:14:59.579 --> 00:15:05.779 we identify in an inspection, a facility that's so problematic that we believe 00:15:05.779 --> 00:15:08.679 it is caused to look at the whole enterprise, right? 00:15:08.779 --> 00:15:12.879 So we take a more corporate wide approach to our inspection process with that employer. 00:15:13.259 --> 00:15:20.759 And we embed it in our updated processes in addition to expanding who, 00:15:20.819 --> 00:15:22.979 you know, of the types of industries that are eligible, 00:15:23.199 --> 00:15:30.639 incentives to get out of that oversight earlier by adopting a health and safety management system. 00:15:31.279 --> 00:15:37.019 We have done a lot of listening with employers in listening sessions and in 00:15:37.019 --> 00:15:42.619 public hearings on both how to embed health and safety as a core value within your organization, 00:15:42.659 --> 00:15:47.019 as well as how we modernize our voluntary protection program, 00:15:47.019 --> 00:15:50.419 which is kind of our marquee employer recognition program.

00:15:50.779 --> 00:15:59.239 And that discussion has evolved from how do we improve that program to how do 00:15:59.239 --> 00:16:06.259 we scale the principles of that program to reach a broader audience of employers, 00:16:06.259 --> 00:16:10.419 to incentivize the adoption of health and safety management systems, 00:16:10.779 --> 00:16:19.539 to adopt approaches that are not tied to criteria that we necessarily establish, 00:16:19.919 --> 00:16:24.179 but borrow from other sources like other consensus standards. 00:16:24.939 --> 00:16:27.779 You know, ANSI or Z10. 00:16:29.359 --> 00:16:29.839 Things like that. 00:16:29.839 --> 00:16:35.339 So these are things that we have under consideration as part of a broader approach 00:16:35.339 --> 00:16:41.299 where we would recognize employers at different levels on their journey towards 00:16:41.299 --> 00:16:47.919 a safe and healthful workplace to encourage incremental steps, 00:16:48.119 --> 00:16:51.459 to encourage that journey, and to recognize there's lots of ways to get there.

00:16:51.459 --> 00:16:56.959 And that we want creative and dynamic thinking, not just a prescriptive approach that we lay out. 00:16:57.179 --> 00:17:00.559 Because the reality is we can, just like with our regulations, 00:17:00.739 --> 00:17:05.099 where it's very difficult to keep up with technology and other things, 00:17:05.819 --> 00:17:16.699 we can't have a static approach to how employers must think about their health and safety programs. 00:17:16.699 --> 00:17:25.719 That has to be dynamic, and we have to have space for employers to innovate and to experiment. 00:17:26.894 --> 00:17:33.514 And what you're saying is there's just so much there.

I see this as kind of a maturation. 00:17:33.874 --> 00:17:38.494 I really like the idea that you guys are deliberately talking about VPP modernization 00:17:38.494 --> 00:17:40.834 because it's really – it's a maturation. 00:17:41.174 --> 00:17:44.274 We started where we started and that's where we should have started. 00:17:44.274 --> 00:17:51.714 So building a compliance framework, a standard, was really important and required 00:17:51.714 --> 00:17:57.174 enforcement and required lots of knowledge sharing and training and lots of boots on the ground.

00:17:57.174 --> 00:18:00.954 And that over time has become much better understood. 00:18:01.474 --> 00:18:05.794 The governance section, which I would suggest is probably the most powerful 00:18:05.794 --> 00:18:11.314 thing you do, even above enforcement, really sets up a set of questions that 00:18:11.314 --> 00:18:12.214 then dictate employers' 00:18:12.514 --> 00:18:15.114 behavior because they're going to – if you want different outcomes from the 00:18:15.114 --> 00:18:17.394 employers, the quick answer is ask different questions. 00:18:17.754 --> 00:18:22.054 And so those questions really create that outcome. And now we're moving into 00:18:22.054 --> 00:18:28.634 kind of understanding this newer view of safety.

kind of a more contemporary view. 00:18:28.874 --> 00:18:31.694 And I think that's a significant part of the journey. 00:18:32.014 --> 00:18:37.034 The challenge is how much does Congress need to play in this? 00:18:37.194 --> 00:18:43.434 And it's encouraging to hear you say that there's some room in the legislation to think about it.

00:18:43.574 --> 00:18:46.114 That's really powerful because the world's changed. 00:18:46.394 --> 00:18:51.494 The thing I find most interesting is that the employment environment really 00:18:51.494 --> 00:18:58.894 post-pandemic is much different now than it probably was pre-pandemic. 00:18:58.894 --> 00:19:04.074 I think that's been going on a while, but the pandemic is kind of a mile post 00:19:04.074 --> 00:19:05.894 that you can sort of drive on. 00:19:06.334 --> 00:19:12.614 What's that doing with you guys in your strategies for the future and what you're 00:19:12.614 --> 00:19:14.294 thinking and where everything's going?

00:19:14.634 --> 00:19:18.174 We think about it in a couple of ways. It is a... 00:19:19.639 --> 00:19:22.579 It is an opportunity born out of tragedy that more people 00:19:22.579 --> 00:19:25.399 in America know who OSHA is than perhaps they 00:19:25.399 --> 00:19:29.219 ever did in the history of the act because of 00:19:29.219 --> 00:19:32.239 COVID and because of the guidance that 00:19:32.239 --> 00:19:40.139 federal and state OSHAs put out and just the recognition of the importance of 00:19:40.139 --> 00:19:44.119 health and safety in workplaces where maybe people didn't think so much about 00:19:44.119 --> 00:19:49.719 health and safety because they didn't think about their workplace being particularly hazardous. 00:19:51.019 --> 00:19:55.299 And maybe it wasn't, but that's a conversation that's much broader than it used 00:19:55.299 --> 00:19:57.759 to be.

And so we see a couple of opportunities. 00:19:58.679 --> 00:20:08.419 One is to think very broadly about how we can play a role in protecting people 00:20:08.599 --> 00:20:19.219 outside of the sort of core traditional approach to occupational health and safety. 00:20:19.379 --> 00:20:25.159 So we are putting a lot more emphasis on things that, you know, 00:20:25.159 --> 00:20:29.079 spaces where we don't actually do enforcement, like mental health, 00:20:29.259 --> 00:20:37.219 you know, safe driving practices, and workplace stress, stress drug use. 00:20:37.359 --> 00:20:43.039 So, so, so, so that's a, you know, and, and like the connection between.

00:20:43.999 --> 00:20:49.859 You know, harass, you know, gender-based harassment and, and workplace violence, things like that. 00:20:50.179 --> 00:20:56.639 So, so these are, these are opportunities in a couple of ways. 00:20:56.679 --> 00:21:01.659 One is that the, you know, the, these are issues that if we tackle them successfully 00:21:01.659 --> 00:21:05.039 help workers, It saves lives. 00:21:05.259 --> 00:21:07.839 It improves their quality of life.

It makes them safer and healthier. 00:21:08.139 --> 00:21:15.539 The other opportunity is that it gives us more ways to communicate and resonate 00:21:15.539 --> 00:21:20.319 with employers who wouldn't otherwise be thinking about their responsibilities 00:21:20.319 --> 00:21:23.139 to provide a safe and healthful workplace. 00:21:23.799 --> 00:21:28.859 Because we can talk about it in more languages than just the one that safety 00:21:28.859 --> 00:21:35.799 engineers talk about. You know, we can talk about it in terms of worker well-being, 00:21:35.819 --> 00:21:38.479 you know, or wellness programs, right?

00:21:38.559 --> 00:21:43.619 Like we can make those connections with people with an HR background that might 00:21:43.619 --> 00:21:45.579 not necessarily think about health and safety. 00:21:45.579 --> 00:21:53.259 And and then from there, tie in the connections between how stress has a has 00:21:53.259 --> 00:21:55.839 a relationship with traditional health and safety issues, 00:21:56.039 --> 00:22:01.659 you know, situational awareness, you know, increases in accidents when when when workers are. 00:22:02.859 --> 00:22:10.639 Suffering from stress. The range of impairments beyond the ones that we tend 00:22:10.639 --> 00:22:14.019 to focus on, which are drug or alcohol use, right?

00:22:14.619 --> 00:22:20.679 There's a wide range there, so that connection exists. But you also look at facts like, 00:22:20.699 --> 00:22:31.519 you know, we have construction workers who are dying from industrial incidents at a rate of, 00:22:31.559 --> 00:22:36.479 you know, it's been above 8 per 100,000 workers for some time now. 00:22:36.899 --> 00:22:40.679 And their suicide rate is 5 to 10 times that. 00:22:41.019 --> 00:22:49.359 Yeah.

So, you know, not a group we think about as vulnerable in terms of their 00:22:49.359 --> 00:22:55.959 mental health because, you know, stereotypes about the big macho construction workers. 00:22:56.759 --> 00:23:01.099 But it's a crisis. It's a crisis. And it's related to a lot of different things.

00:23:01.179 --> 00:23:05.999 And, you know, it's not an area where we enforce, but we have a voice where 00:23:05.999 --> 00:23:10.379 we can reach employers and talk about that. And workers. And workers. 00:23:10.579 --> 00:23:15.759 And then it creates so much common ground and goodwill because employers are 00:23:15.759 --> 00:23:18.339 really struggling with this as well as workers.

00:23:18.539 --> 00:23:23.019 And employers want to find a way to address this because they see the impacts on their workplace. 00:23:23.139 --> 00:23:29.719 They see the impacts on performance, on retention, on their workplace community. 00:23:30.099 --> 00:23:33.979 And so it gives us a lot of goodwill to talk about other things. 00:23:33.979 --> 00:23:38.319 And I would suggest, and please jump in and correct me at any moment, 00:23:38.459 --> 00:23:43.399 but I would suggest for you guys, enforcement's probably the least effective 00:23:43.399 --> 00:23:45.339 tool you have to facilitate change.

00:23:46.187 --> 00:23:49.927 I know it's seen as a powerful tool, and it is a powerful tool, 00:23:50.087 --> 00:23:56.167 but you have so much other influence, really, in ways that no other regulator 00:23:56.167 --> 00:23:57.347 would even come close to. 00:23:57.487 --> 00:24:02.947 We just did a workshop on that very topic, on suicide in the construction industry, 00:24:03.147 --> 00:24:07.887 and we created a space for pretty important companies, and we can talk about 00:24:07.887 --> 00:24:10.447 this all you want, to tell us what they were doing. 00:24:10.447 --> 00:24:16.987 And the innovation around suicide prevention and mental health in construction 00:24:16.987 --> 00:24:18.827 industry is remarkable. 00:24:19.167 --> 00:24:23.347 I mean, you would be completely impressed by what's happening out there.

00:24:23.447 --> 00:24:27.947 The advent of – I think they're calling them personal development coaches, 00:24:28.227 --> 00:24:34.467 but they're putting mental health professionals on the job site to help create 00:24:34.467 --> 00:24:39.347 a space for conversations and to diffuse what's going on. 00:24:39.347 --> 00:24:42.727 It was an incredible, I wish, I'd have loved to snuck you in there. 00:24:42.787 --> 00:24:45.347 I could have too. I didn't think of it until right now.

I should have probably 00:24:45.347 --> 00:24:46.507 called you before the meeting. 00:24:46.827 --> 00:24:50.747 I would have loved that. Yeah. And I mean, I've seen some of that in action 00:24:50.747 --> 00:24:54.447 with some of the partnerships you see in New England between the unions and 00:24:54.447 --> 00:24:58.367 the employer associations and where they really have, 00:24:58.387 --> 00:25:06.587 you know, a kind of wall-to-wall set of safety nets for workers so they can really get.

00:25:09.327 --> 00:25:13.627 They you know, not just from a medical perspective, but in terms of making sure 00:25:13.627 --> 00:25:17.807 they have housing and all the things that they need to put back on their feet. That's exactly right. 00:25:18.527 --> 00:25:21.487 How does innovation get to you? 00:25:21.727 --> 00:25:27.107 How do new ideas, new thinking, new practices that are being out there in the 00:25:27.107 --> 00:25:29.187 field, how does that move up through the organization?

00:25:29.427 --> 00:25:34.127 Because I spent most of my career in Department of Energy, so I understand things 00:25:34.227 --> 00:25:38.767 like government bureaucracy and how hard it is to get a new stapler. 00:25:38.807 --> 00:25:41.307 I mean, I know those parts. 00:25:41.627 --> 00:25:45.727 Yeah. Let me address one of your other – Oh, absolutely.

00:25:45.947 --> 00:25:50.207 You posed a question earlier in that last bit. 00:25:50.247 --> 00:25:54.527 You asked about whether I thought enforcement was our least effective tool for change. 00:25:54.907 --> 00:25:59.827 I will say that where we can be very powerful is where we –. 00:26:00.942 --> 00:26:07.762 Bring together the synergies of our different tools.

And I'll give you a very contemporary example. 00:26:08.142 --> 00:26:16.062 When about, it was 2022, I was getting report after report of trenching deaths, 00:26:17.082 --> 00:26:21.902 often multiple fatalities, usually from, you know, ground failure, 00:26:21.982 --> 00:26:25.222 but also electrocutions struck by 00:26:25.222 --> 00:26:28.002 different and so this was such an 00:26:28.002 --> 00:26:31.122 alarming increase in trenching deaths 00:26:31.122 --> 00:26:34.942 and it and it it coincided with me actually confronting 00:26:34.942 --> 00:26:40.902 a contractor in front of my house who was who was digging a trench and when 00:26:40.902 --> 00:26:46.942 i went out there you know he told me it's only six and a half feet and it had 00:26:46.942 --> 00:26:51.862 been raining for about three weeks and they the ladder was the ladder was a violation i I mean, 00:26:51.862 --> 00:26:54.542 there were multiple things and they were fixing a water main. 00:26:54.582 --> 00:26:56.922 So the bottom of it was full of water. I mean, it was awful.

00:26:57.302 --> 00:27:02.482 And I, and I certainly got a new appreciation for the challenges that our staff 00:27:02.482 --> 00:27:07.342 go through when they, when they put on their hard hat and go out and talk to these guys. 00:27:07.462 --> 00:27:11.262 I also would imagine that contractor was pretty shocked when he figured out who you were. 00:27:11.722 --> 00:27:19.302 Yeah. I mean, what, what luck, what luck for him, but I'm glad I was there.

Yeah. 00:27:19.382 --> 00:27:23.702 But anyways, we we decided that we were going to take an all or above approach. 00:27:23.822 --> 00:27:26.702 We d