PAPod 518 - Navigating the Future of Workplace Safety: A Conversation with OSHA's Douglas L. Parker

Show Transcript

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I was recently asked at a conference why we care so much about total injury rates.

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And my response to the audience was, and it was predominantly employers,

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I really think it's you that care more about total injury rates than we. We'll be right back.

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Music.

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Hey, everybody. Todd Conklin, Pre-Accident Investigation Podcast. How are you?

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It is awfully good to have you on board for the pod.

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If this is your first pod, you're more than welcome. I'm glad to have you.

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If you've been around a long time, you know, an old hand at this,

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you kind of know what's going to happen. It's the drill.

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This pod is an interesting adventure. venture.

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You know, I've been telling you all year long, incredible lineup this year for the podcast.

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We have had some amazing pods. We've had a lot of amazing pods over the thousand

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episodes or however, it's a lot. We've done this a lot.

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But today is an extra special day because I think you're going to enjoy it immensely.

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Because today we're going to talk

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to the Assistant Secretary of Labor for Occupational Safety and Health.

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We're going to talk to Douglas L. Parker, and he's the OSHA administrator.

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I think that's my term, not his term, but, you know, it's my podcast,

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so I can use the terms I want to.

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I had a remarkable, remarkable conversation, and I am so excited to invite you

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in and be a part of it. It'll just be the three of us.

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It'll be the assistant secretary, myself, and you.

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And we're just going to talk a little bit about the future and what this looks

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like from not only our side of the safety and reliability equation,

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but from the regulatory side, the governance side of safety and reliability.

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And you'll be pleased to know that, you know, I got some questions in that I

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think you're going to want to have me ask.

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So I think I got my checklist checked off. But you'll have to be the ultimate judge of that.

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The one good news is that the assistant secretary definitely said he would be honored to come back.

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And I would really like to actually have him back because I'd really like to

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talk to him about fatalities and serious events, just specifically that topic,

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because I think that topic is that important. Now, this is a long one.

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So, you know, I usually cut them in half, make them two-parters.

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But this one didn't lend itself very, it didn't seem like that would be the right thing to do.

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You know what I mean? It seemed like that would be, that would,

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the word that comes to mind is that would truncate it.

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And I didn't think we wanted to truncate it just because it kind of hits a flow.

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You'll see. There's a flow.

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Yeah, you'll see it. And so that's going to be a big part of the conversation as well. all.

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This, I think, is a worthwhile use of your time.

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And again, it's just so pleasant to have you on board for this conversation.

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And you're absolutely invited in. I mean, this is why we do this,

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this very podcast for this reason.

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So if you will, please give a listen.

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It's just the three of us, you, myself, and the Assistant Secretary, Doug Parker.

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And we're going to have a conversation about safety and where we're heading.

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A complete treat, and I can't say that enough times to have you on board.

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As Assistant Secretary of Labor for Occupational Safety and Health, what's your job?

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Well, someone gave me the great advice that you shouldn't be doing something

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anybody else in your organization can do.

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You should be focused on the things that, as the leader, are really unique to you.

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Now, unfortunately, that doesn't work as well in government as it might in private

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sector because there are so many mandates and so many ministerial functions

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and so many needs to fill different gaps that it doesn't quite work out that way in practice.

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But I try to focus on setting a tone, setting a vision for the agency about

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the direction in which I believe that we ought to go.

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And my focus has always been on how to advance values-driven approaches to health

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and safety and to not only speak about that in terms of platitudes,

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but to find actionable things that we can do and that employers can do across

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our portfolio of work that reflect those values. use.

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So if it's an enforcement, it means looking at how we can not just abate hazards,

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but leave a workplace safer than we left it.

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How we can deal with a recalcitrant employer using all of our tools so that

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we have the proper deterrence in place and the means to intervene to prevent future worker harm.

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Whether that's criminal prosecutions or referrals, whether that's looking at

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imminent danger, whether that's high penalties, whether that's our severe violator program,

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using those tools appropriately to drive change.

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And then also looking at the huge untapped potential of our relationships with

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workers, workers, with unions, and certainly with employers,

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where we can use kind of soft power, the power of our voice to promote health

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and safety management systems, to promote,

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leadership on health and safety, to promote an integrated approach to improve

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organizational culture on health and safety, to get greater worker participation,

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recognizing that workers are

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have the most at stake and can make significant contributions if

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given the opportunity to make workplaces safer and and again to to to find systematic

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approaches to finding and fixing hazards so so it's a work in progress you know

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we've we worked on pieces of this we have pieces we're getting ready to roll out but it's.

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It is the greatest job. I feel like it's one of the greatest jobs in government.

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And I'm so happy to be able to do it every day and help workers and serve this incredible mission.

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How much, so there's clearly the two sides of the agency you talked about,

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the enforcement side, and then sort of the guidance and governance side.

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How much have you guys contemplated, especially in the last couple of years,

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because I have so many great things to talk to you about. I'm so excited you're here.

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How much have you contemplated the fact that the system in which sort of OSHA

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has created around total reportable cases, days away,

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the reporting numbers, that system is actually pretty much attuned to get the

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outcome it's getting, and that it's given the regulator kind of an antiquated

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understanding of risk operationally.

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And we kind of started this conversation.

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Then I said, we should record this. So I stopped and did this formal recording.

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But let's go right back to that.

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Because the most exciting thing for me is to understand kind of the unlucky

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lot you guys have as the regulator.

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Because you have to – the enforcement arm is really important and I think carries

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awesome responsibility and actually really helps.

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But it's the rest of the governance that actually creates the operational and

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regulatory context by which organizations are constantly monitored and making

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decisions based upon sort of what they think you guys want.

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How does that fit into the view of the future?

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Well, that's a really interesting question. You know, we...

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We operate with the information that we have, just like any other organization.

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And that has been primarily information that we have about injuries,

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specifically injuries, because we don't have great surveillance information

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nationally on occupational disease.

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And it has always been a pretty blunt instrument in terms of the data that we

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have. I will I will say that I am excited about the prospects of the increased

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injury and illness reporting.

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There's a you know, there's a pitfall that we would go deeper down the down

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the road of only looking at only looking at sort of past performance with,

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you know, and only looking at the universe of of of injuries.

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Injuries in, in a global sense, or I mean, in a, you know, or maybe a better

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word would say, would be in a, in an unstratified sense, right?

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But, but the, the information that we're obtaining, which will include injury reports,

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300 logs, it has the potential as we get more and more sophisticated in our

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capacity to analyze it, to really identify real risk within those numbers,

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rather than using our current approach.

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And so I think that what we're doing in the ITA space has that potential if we do it right.

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I was recently asked at a conference why we care so much about total injury rates.

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And my response to the audience was, and it was predominantly employers.

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I really think it's you that care more about total injury rates than we do, right?

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I mean, you know, it's not something that we certainly dwell on.

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I mean, we pay attention to it. We pay more attention to DART rates.

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But we also want employers to understand that we want them looking at how they

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can improve their health and safety management systems,

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how they can take an organizational approach,

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how they can adopt as a core value health and safety of their workers,

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following the kind of principles that we've laid out.

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Because I believe if they do those things, compliance, or at least the most

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kind of legally perilous parts

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of compliance, will take care of themselves if they have a good system.

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I'm not saying they won't get citations ever, but I think that it's the best

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approach to making sure that they're in compliance with the law is to start

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with values and start with a system.

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Right. and be above the, and, you know, compliance is a floor,

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right? So we're really looking at a systems approach.

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And I think also that your injury and illness rates.

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Will take care of themselves as well. And that's encouraging to hear you say.

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Part of what I'm interested in is the definition of safety has really changed.

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And it's been changing for sure. It's maturing or we're getting smarter.

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We're getting more experienced. I think we're understanding complexity of operations in a different way.

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But traditionally, we've defined safety success as the absence of injury, right?

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I mean, and that's kind of what those metrics measure, the absence of injury,

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we sort of hold a company accountable to the number of people they hurt.

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And the lower that number is, clearly, the better they are performing safely.

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What's happened, however, is organizations, especially organizations that are

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dealing with really high levels of risk or super high consequence of risk,

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they've kind of been less than satisfied with that traditional definition.

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And now they really define safety as the presence of capability,

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responsibility not the absence of harm

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and so they start to actually look for

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and measure the capacity that the

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organization has to do work safely and what's happened and it's so interesting

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to me and i'm a hundred percent curious what you guys are thinking is that we've

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really moved safety from a

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program to a practice now i would suggest it's always been in a practice.

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But we've looked at it as if it were an individual, almost stratified part of

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an organization that was in charge of safety.

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That's changing. And to a great extent, it feels like that puts you in a position

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where you either have to catch up or double down.

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And by catch up, I don't mean the red sauce that we use in finer restaurants. I mean, catch up.

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Sorry, I am from Western Kansas. That's how it comes out.

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Well, you know, I, yeah, that's, that's a kind of profound question for us, right?

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How do we, how do we, how do we adapt?

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How do we stay true to the OSHA Act while doing, doing that?

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And I believe that the, the content is there in the OSHA Act.

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If you read the preamble, you know, if you start with, you know, start with section two.

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It presents a very holistic approach that includes partnerships between labor

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management and government.

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It talks about understanding the health and safety, you know,

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the problem of health and safety and injury and illness in this country.

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It talks about surveillance. It talks about partnership with NIOSH,

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although not, I don't I remember it's, you know, Nyasha is named later in the statute, I think.

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But it presents a, I think, a dynamic approach if you look at it.

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And so it's, what we can do is adopt ideas.

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Incremental improvements that go,

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that head in the direction of this kind of new way of, new view of,

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if you will, of health and safety within the context of our enforcement program.

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So, for example, we are, you know, when we adjusted our severe violator program, which.

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Which many of your listeners probably know, but this is the system by which

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we identify in an inspection, a facility that's so problematic that we believe

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it is caused to look at the whole enterprise, right?

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So we take a more corporate wide approach to our inspection process with that employer.

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And we embed it in our updated processes in addition to expanding who,

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you know, of the types of industries that are eligible,

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incentives to get out of that oversight earlier by adopting a health and safety management system.

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We have done a lot of listening with employers in listening sessions and in

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public hearings on both how to embed health and safety as a core value within your organization,

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as well as how we modernize our voluntary protection program,

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which is kind of our marquee employer recognition program.

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And that discussion has evolved from how do we improve that program to how do

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we scale the principles of that program to reach a broader audience of employers,

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to incentivize the adoption of health and safety management systems,

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to adopt approaches that are not tied to criteria that we necessarily establish,

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but borrow from other sources like other consensus standards.

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You know, ANSI or Z10.

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Things like that.

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So these are things that we have under consideration as part of a broader approach

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where we would recognize employers at different levels on their journey towards

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a safe and healthful workplace to encourage incremental steps,

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to encourage that journey, and to recognize there's lots of ways to get there.

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And that we want creative and dynamic thinking, not just a prescriptive approach that we lay out.

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Because the reality is we can, just like with our regulations,

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where it's very difficult to keep up with technology and other things,

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we can't have a static approach to how employers must think about their health and safety programs.

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That has to be dynamic, and we have to have space for employers to innovate and to experiment.

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And what you're saying is there's just so much there. I see this as kind of a maturation.

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I really like the idea that you guys are deliberately talking about VPP modernization

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because it's really – it's a maturation.

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We started where we started and that's where we should have started.

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So building a compliance framework, a standard, was really important and required

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enforcement and required lots of knowledge sharing and training and lots of boots on the ground.

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And that over time has become much better understood.

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The governance section, which I would suggest is probably the most powerful

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thing you do, even above enforcement, really sets up a set of questions that

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then dictate employers'

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behavior because they're going to – if you want different outcomes from the

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employers, the quick answer is ask different questions.

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And so those questions really create that outcome. And now we're moving into

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kind of understanding this newer view of safety. kind of a more contemporary view.

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And I think that's a significant part of the journey.

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The challenge is how much does Congress need to play in this?

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And it's encouraging to hear you say that there's some room in the legislation to think about it.

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That's really powerful because the world's changed.

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The thing I find most interesting is that the employment environment really

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post-pandemic is much different now than it probably was pre-pandemic.

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I think that's been going on a while, but the pandemic is kind of a mile post

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that you can sort of drive on.

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What's that doing with you guys in your strategies for the future and what you're

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thinking and where everything's going?

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We think about it in a couple of ways. It is a...

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It is an opportunity born out of tragedy that more people

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in America know who OSHA is than perhaps they

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ever did in the history of the act because of

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COVID and because of the guidance that

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federal and state OSHAs put out and just the recognition of the importance of

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health and safety in workplaces where maybe people didn't think so much about

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health and safety because they didn't think about their workplace being particularly hazardous.

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And maybe it wasn't, but that's a conversation that's much broader than it used

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to be. And so we see a couple of opportunities.

00:19:58.679 --> 00:20:08.419
One is to think very broadly about how we can play a role in protecting people

00:20:08.599 --> 00:20:19.219
outside of the sort of core traditional approach to occupational health and safety.

00:20:19.379 --> 00:20:25.159
So we are putting a lot more emphasis on things that, you know,

00:20:25.159 --> 00:20:29.079
spaces where we don't actually do enforcement, like mental health,

00:20:29.259 --> 00:20:37.219
you know, safe driving practices, and workplace stress, stress drug use.

00:20:37.359 --> 00:20:43.039
So, so, so, so that's a, you know, and, and like the connection between.

00:20:43.999 --> 00:20:49.859
You know, harass, you know, gender-based harassment and, and workplace violence, things like that.

00:20:50.179 --> 00:20:56.639
So, so these are, these are opportunities in a couple of ways.

00:20:56.679 --> 00:21:01.659
One is that the, you know, the, these are issues that if we tackle them successfully

00:21:01.659 --> 00:21:05.039
help workers, It saves lives.

00:21:05.259 --> 00:21:07.839
It improves their quality of life. It makes them safer and healthier.

00:21:08.139 --> 00:21:15.539
The other opportunity is that it gives us more ways to communicate and resonate

00:21:15.539 --> 00:21:20.319
with employers who wouldn't otherwise be thinking about their responsibilities

00:21:20.319 --> 00:21:23.139
to provide a safe and healthful workplace.

00:21:23.799 --> 00:21:28.859
Because we can talk about it in more languages than just the one that safety

00:21:28.859 --> 00:21:35.799
engineers talk about. You know, we can talk about it in terms of worker well-being,

00:21:35.819 --> 00:21:38.479
you know, or wellness programs, right?

00:21:38.559 --> 00:21:43.619
Like we can make those connections with people with an HR background that might

00:21:43.619 --> 00:21:45.579
not necessarily think about health and safety.

00:21:45.579 --> 00:21:53.259
And and then from there, tie in the connections between how stress has a has

00:21:53.259 --> 00:21:55.839
a relationship with traditional health and safety issues,

00:21:56.039 --> 00:22:01.659
you know, situational awareness, you know, increases in accidents when when when workers are.

00:22:02.859 --> 00:22:10.639
Suffering from stress. The range of impairments beyond the ones that we tend

00:22:10.639 --> 00:22:14.019
to focus on, which are drug or alcohol use, right?

00:22:14.619 --> 00:22:20.679
There's a wide range there, so that connection exists. But you also look at facts like,

00:22:20.699 --> 00:22:31.519
you know, we have construction workers who are dying from industrial incidents at a rate of,

00:22:31.559 --> 00:22:36.479
you know, it's been above 8 per 100,000 workers for some time now.

00:22:36.899 --> 00:22:40.679
And their suicide rate is 5 to 10 times that.

00:22:41.019 --> 00:22:49.359
Yeah. So, you know, not a group we think about as vulnerable in terms of their

00:22:49.359 --> 00:22:55.959
mental health because, you know, stereotypes about the big macho construction workers.

00:22:56.759 --> 00:23:01.099
But it's a crisis. It's a crisis. And it's related to a lot of different things.

00:23:01.179 --> 00:23:05.999
And, you know, it's not an area where we enforce, but we have a voice where

00:23:05.999 --> 00:23:10.379
we can reach employers and talk about that. And workers. And workers.

00:23:10.579 --> 00:23:15.759
And then it creates so much common ground and goodwill because employers are

00:23:15.759 --> 00:23:18.339
really struggling with this as well as workers.

00:23:18.539 --> 00:23:23.019
And employers want to find a way to address this because they see the impacts on their workplace.

00:23:23.139 --> 00:23:29.719
They see the impacts on performance, on retention, on their workplace community.

00:23:30.099 --> 00:23:33.979
And so it gives us a lot of goodwill to talk about other things.

00:23:33.979 --> 00:23:38.319
And I would suggest, and please jump in and correct me at any moment,

00:23:38.459 --> 00:23:43.399
but I would suggest for you guys, enforcement's probably the least effective

00:23:43.399 --> 00:23:45.339
tool you have to facilitate change.

00:23:46.187 --> 00:23:49.927
I know it's seen as a powerful tool, and it is a powerful tool,

00:23:50.087 --> 00:23:56.167
but you have so much other influence, really, in ways that no other regulator

00:23:56.167 --> 00:23:57.347
would even come close to.

00:23:57.487 --> 00:24:02.947
We just did a workshop on that very topic, on suicide in the construction industry,

00:24:03.147 --> 00:24:07.887
and we created a space for pretty important companies, and we can talk about

00:24:07.887 --> 00:24:10.447
this all you want, to tell us what they were doing.

00:24:10.447 --> 00:24:16.987
And the innovation around suicide prevention and mental health in construction

00:24:16.987 --> 00:24:18.827
industry is remarkable.

00:24:19.167 --> 00:24:23.347
I mean, you would be completely impressed by what's happening out there.

00:24:23.447 --> 00:24:27.947
The advent of – I think they're calling them personal development coaches,

00:24:28.227 --> 00:24:34.467
but they're putting mental health professionals on the job site to help create

00:24:34.467 --> 00:24:39.347
a space for conversations and to diffuse what's going on.

00:24:39.347 --> 00:24:42.727
It was an incredible, I wish, I'd have loved to snuck you in there.

00:24:42.787 --> 00:24:45.347
I could have too. I didn't think of it until right now. I should have probably

00:24:45.347 --> 00:24:46.507
called you before the meeting.

00:24:46.827 --> 00:24:50.747
I would have loved that. Yeah. And I mean, I've seen some of that in action

00:24:50.747 --> 00:24:54.447
with some of the partnerships you see in New England between the unions and

00:24:54.447 --> 00:24:58.367
the employer associations and where they really have,

00:24:58.387 --> 00:25:06.587
you know, a kind of wall-to-wall set of safety nets for workers so they can really get.

00:25:09.327 --> 00:25:13.627
They you know, not just from a medical perspective, but in terms of making sure

00:25:13.627 --> 00:25:17.807
they have housing and all the things that they need to put back on their feet. That's exactly right.

00:25:18.527 --> 00:25:21.487
How does innovation get to you?

00:25:21.727 --> 00:25:27.107
How do new ideas, new thinking, new practices that are being out there in the

00:25:27.107 --> 00:25:29.187
field, how does that move up through the organization?

00:25:29.427 --> 00:25:34.127
Because I spent most of my career in Department of Energy, so I understand things

00:25:34.227 --> 00:25:38.767
like government bureaucracy and how hard it is to get a new stapler.

00:25:38.807 --> 00:25:41.307
I mean, I know those parts.

00:25:41.627 --> 00:25:45.727
Yeah. Let me address one of your other – Oh, absolutely.

00:25:45.947 --> 00:25:50.207
You posed a question earlier in that last bit.

00:25:50.247 --> 00:25:54.527
You asked about whether I thought enforcement was our least effective tool for change.

00:25:54.907 --> 00:25:59.827
I will say that where we can be very powerful is where we –.

00:26:00.942 --> 00:26:07.762
Bring together the synergies of our different tools. And I'll give you a very contemporary example.

00:26:08.142 --> 00:26:16.062
When about, it was 2022, I was getting report after report of trenching deaths,

00:26:17.082 --> 00:26:21.902
often multiple fatalities, usually from, you know, ground failure,

00:26:21.982 --> 00:26:25.222
but also electrocutions struck by

00:26:25.222 --> 00:26:28.002
different and so this was such an

00:26:28.002 --> 00:26:31.122
alarming increase in trenching deaths

00:26:31.122 --> 00:26:34.942
and it and it it coincided with me actually confronting

00:26:34.942 --> 00:26:40.902
a contractor in front of my house who was who was digging a trench and when

00:26:40.902 --> 00:26:46.942
i went out there you know he told me it's only six and a half feet and it had

00:26:46.942 --> 00:26:51.862
been raining for about three weeks and they the ladder was the ladder was a violation i I mean,

00:26:51.862 --> 00:26:54.542
there were multiple things and they were fixing a water main.

00:26:54.582 --> 00:26:56.922
So the bottom of it was full of water. I mean, it was awful.

00:26:57.302 --> 00:27:02.482
And I, and I certainly got a new appreciation for the challenges that our staff

00:27:02.482 --> 00:27:07.342
go through when they, when they put on their hard hat and go out and talk to these guys.

00:27:07.462 --> 00:27:11.262
I also would imagine that contractor was pretty shocked when he figured out who you were.

00:27:11.722 --> 00:27:19.302
Yeah. I mean, what, what luck, what luck for him, but I'm glad I was there. Yeah.

00:27:19.382 --> 00:27:23.702
But anyways, we we decided that we were going to take an all or above approach.

00:27:23.822 --> 00:27:26.702
We d