PAPod 518 - Navigating the Future of Workplace Safety: A Conversation with OSHA's Douglas L. Parker

Show Transcript

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I was recently asked at a conference why we care so much about total injury rates.

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And my response to the audience was, and it was predominantly employers,

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I really think it's you that care more about total injury rates than we. We'll be right back.

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Music.

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Hey, everybody. Todd Conklin, Pre-Accident Investigation Podcast. How are you?

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It is awfully good to have you on board for the pod.

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If this is your first pod, you're more than welcome. I'm glad to have you.

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If you've been around a long time, you know, an old hand at this,

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you kind of know what's going to happen. It's the drill.

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This pod is an interesting adventure. venture.

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You know, I've been telling you all year long, incredible lineup this year for the podcast.

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We have had some amazing pods. We've had a lot of amazing pods over the thousand

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episodes or however, it's a lot. We've done this a lot.

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But today is an extra special day because I think you're going to enjoy it immensely.

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Because today we're going to talk

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to the Assistant Secretary of Labor for Occupational Safety and Health.

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We're going to talk to Douglas L. Parker, and he's the OSHA administrator.

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I think that's my term, not his term, but, you know, it's my podcast,

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so I can use the terms I want to.

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I had a remarkable, remarkable conversation, and I am so excited to invite you

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in and be a part of it. It'll just be the three of us.

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It'll be the assistant secretary, myself, and you.

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And we're just going to talk a little bit about the future and what this looks

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like from not only our side of the safety and reliability equation,

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but from the regulatory side, the governance side of safety and reliability.

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And you'll be pleased to know that, you know, I got some questions in that I

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think you're going to want to have me ask.

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So I think I got my checklist checked off. But you'll have to be the ultimate judge of that.

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The one good news is that the assistant secretary definitely said he would be honored to come back.

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And I would really like to actually have him back because I'd really like to

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talk to him about fatalities and serious events, just specifically that topic,

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because I think that topic is that important. Now, this is a long one.

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So, you know, I usually cut them in half, make them two-parters.

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But this one didn't lend itself very, it didn't seem like that would be the right thing to do.

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You know what I mean? It seemed like that would be, that would,

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the word that comes to mind is that would truncate it.

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And I didn't think we wanted to truncate it just because it kind of hits a flow.

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You'll see. There's a flow.

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Yeah, you'll see it. And so that's going to be a big part of the conversation as well. all.

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This, I think, is a worthwhile use of your time.

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And again, it's just so pleasant to have you on board for this conversation.

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And you're absolutely invited in. I mean, this is why we do this,

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this very podcast for this reason.

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So if you will, please give a listen.

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It's just the three of us, you, myself, and the Assistant Secretary, Doug Parker.

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And we're going to have a conversation about safety and where we're heading.

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A complete treat, and I can't say that enough times to have you on board.

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As Assistant Secretary of Labor for Occupational Safety and Health, what's your job?

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Well, someone gave me the great advice that you shouldn't be doing something

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anybody else in your organization can do.

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You should be focused on the things that, as the leader, are really unique to you.

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Now, unfortunately, that doesn't work as well in government as it might in private

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sector because there are so many mandates and so many ministerial functions

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and so many needs to fill different gaps that it doesn't quite work out that way in practice.

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But I try to focus on setting a tone, setting a vision for the agency about

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the direction in which I believe that we ought to go.

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And my focus has always been on how to advance values-driven approaches to health

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and safety and to not only speak about that in terms of platitudes,

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but to find actionable things that we can do and that employers can do across

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our portfolio of work that reflect those values. use.

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So if it's an enforcement, it means looking at how we can not just abate hazards,

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but leave a workplace safer than we left it.

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How we can deal with a recalcitrant employer using all of our tools so that

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we have the proper deterrence in place and the means to intervene to prevent future worker harm.

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Whether that's criminal prosecutions or referrals, whether that's looking at

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imminent danger, whether that's high penalties, whether that's our severe violator program,

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using those tools appropriately to drive change.

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And then also looking at the huge untapped potential of our relationships with

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workers, workers, with unions, and certainly with employers,

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where we can use kind of soft power, the power of our voice to promote health

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and safety management systems, to promote,

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leadership on health and safety, to promote an integrated approach to improve

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organizational culture on health and safety, to get greater worker participation,

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recognizing that workers are

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have the most at stake and can make significant contributions if

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given the opportunity to make workplaces safer and and again to to to find systematic

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approaches to finding and fixing hazards so so it's a work in progress you know

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we've we worked on pieces of this we have pieces we're getting ready to roll out but it's.

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It is the greatest job. I feel like it's one of the greatest jobs in government.

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And I'm so happy to be able to do it every day and help workers and serve this incredible mission.

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How much, so there's clearly the two sides of the agency you talked about,

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the enforcement side, and then sort of the guidance and governance side.

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How much have you guys contemplated, especially in the last couple of years,

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because I have so many great things to talk to you about. I'm so excited you're here.

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How much have you contemplated the fact that the system in which sort of OSHA

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has created around total reportable cases, days away,

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the reporting numbers, that system is actually pretty much attuned to get the

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outcome it's getting, and that it's given the regulator kind of an antiquated

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understanding of risk operationally.

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And we kind of started this conversation.

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Then I said, we should record this. So I stopped and did this formal recording.

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But let's go right back to that.

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Because the most exciting thing for me is to understand kind of the unlucky

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lot you guys have as the regulator.

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Because you have to – the enforcement arm is really important and I think carries

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awesome responsibility and actually really helps.

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But it's the rest of the governance that actually creates the operational and

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regulatory context by which organizations are constantly monitored and making

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decisions based upon sort of what they think you guys want.

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How does that fit into the view of the future?

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Well, that's a really interesting question. You know, we...

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We operate with the information that we have, just like any other organization.

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And that has been primarily information that we have about injuries,

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specifically injuries, because we don't have great surveillance information

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nationally on occupational disease.

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And it has always been a pretty blunt instrument in terms of the data that we

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have. I will I will say that I am excited about the prospects of the increased

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injury and illness reporting.

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There's a you know, there's a pitfall that we would go deeper down the down

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the road of only looking at only looking at sort of past performance with,

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you know, and only looking at the universe of of of injuries.

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Injuries in, in a global sense, or I mean, in a, you know, or maybe a better

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word would say, would be in a, in an unstratified sense, right?

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But, but the, the information that we're obtaining, which will include injury reports,

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300 logs, it has the potential as we get more and more sophisticated in our

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capacity to analyze it, to really identify real risk within those numbers,

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rather than using our current approach.

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And so I think that what we're doing in the ITA space has that potential if we do it right.

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I was recently asked at a conference why we care so much about total injury rates.

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And my response to the audience was, and it was predominantly employers.

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I really think it's you that care more about total injury rates than we do, right?

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I mean, you know, it's not something that we certainly dwell on.

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I mean, we pay attention to it. We pay more attention to DART rates.

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But we also want employers to understand that we want them looking at how they

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can improve their health and safety management systems,

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how they can take an organizational approach,

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how they can adopt as a core value health and safety of their workers,

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following the kind of principles that we've laid out.

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Because I believe if they do those things, compliance, or at least the most

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kind of legally perilous parts

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of compliance, will take care of themselves if they have a good system.

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I'm not saying they won't get citations ever, but I think that it's the best

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approach to making sure that they're in compliance with the law is to start

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with values and start with a system.

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Right. and be above the, and, you know, compliance is a floor,

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right? So we're really looking at a systems approach.

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And I think also that your injury and illness rates.

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Will take care of themselves as well. And that's encouraging to hear you say.

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Part of what I'm interested in is the definition of safety has really changed.

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And it's been changing for sure. It's maturing or we're getting smarter.

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We're getting more experienced. I think we're understanding complexity of operations in a different way.

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But traditionally, we've defined safety success as the absence of injury, right?

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I mean, and that's kind of what those metrics measure, the absence of injury,

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we sort of hold a company accountable to the number of people they hurt.

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And the lower that number is, clearly, the better they are performing safely.

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What's happened, however, is organizations, especially organizations that are

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dealing with really high levels of risk or super high consequence of risk,

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they've kind of been less than satisfied with that traditional definition.

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And now they really define safety as the presence of capability,

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responsibility not the absence of harm

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and so they start to actually look for

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and measure the capacity that the

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organization has to do work safely and what's happened and it's so interesting

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to me and i'm a hundred percent curious what you guys are thinking is that we've

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really moved safety from a

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program to a practice now i would suggest it's always been in a practice.

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But we've looked at it as if it were an individual, almost stratified part of

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an organization that was in charge of safety.

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That's changing. And to a great extent, it feels like that puts you in a position

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where you either have to catch up or double down.

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And by catch up, I don't mean the red sauce that we use in finer restaurants. I mean, catch up.

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Sorry, I am from Western Kansas. That's how it comes out.

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Well, you know, I, yeah, that's, that's a kind of profound question for us, right?

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How do we, how do we, how do we adapt?

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How do we stay true to the OSHA Act while doing, doing that?

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And I believe that the, the content is there in the OSHA Act.

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If you read the preamble, you know, if you start with, you know, start with section two.

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It presents a very holistic approach that includes partnerships between labor

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management and government.

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It talks about understanding the health and safety, you know,

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the problem of health and safety and injury and illness in this country.

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It talks about surveillance. It talks about partnership with NIOSH,

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although not, I don't I remember it's, you know, Nyasha is named later in the statute, I think.

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But it presents a, I think, a dynamic approach if you look at it.

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And so it's, what we can do is adopt ideas.

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Incremental improvements that go,

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that head in the direction of this kind of new way of, new view of,

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if you will, of health and safety within the context of our enforcement program.

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So, for example, we are, you know, when we adjusted our severe violator program, which.

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Which many of your listeners probably know, but this is the system by which

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we identify in an inspection, a facility that's so problematic that we believe

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it is caused to look at the whole enterprise, right?

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So we take a more corporate wide approach to our inspection process with that employer.

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And we embed it in our updated processes in addition to expanding who,

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you know, of the types of industries that are eligible,

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incentives to get out of that oversight earlier by adopting a health and safety management system.

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We have done a lot of listening with employers in listening sessions and in

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public hearings on both how to embed health and safety as a core value within your organization,

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as well as how we modernize our voluntary protection program,

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which is kind of our marquee employer recognition program.

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And that discussion has evolved from how do we improve that program to how do

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we scale the principles of that program to reach a broader audience of employers,

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to incentivize the adoption of health and safety management systems,

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to adopt approaches that are not tied to criteria that we necessarily establish,

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but borrow from other sources like other consensus standards.

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You know, ANSI or Z10.

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Things like that.

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So these are things that we have under consideration as part of a broader approach

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where we would recognize employers at different levels on their journey towards

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a safe and healthful workplace to encourage incremental steps,

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to encourage that journey, and to recognize there's lots of ways to get there.

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And that we want creative and dynamic thinking, not just a prescriptive approach that we lay out.

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Because the reality is we can, just like with our regulations,

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where it's very difficult to keep up with technology and other things,

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we can't have a static approach to how employers must think about their health and safety programs.

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That has to be dynamic, and we have to have space for employers to innovate and to experiment.

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And what you're saying is there's just so much there. I see this as kind of a maturation.

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I really like the idea that you guys are deliberately talking about VPP modernization

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because it's really – it's a maturation.

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We started where we started and that's where we should have started.

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So building a compliance framework, a standard, was really important and required

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enforcement and required lots of knowledge sharing and training and lots of boots on the ground.

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And that over time has become much better understood.

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The governance section, which I would suggest is probably the most powerful

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thing you do, even above enforcement, really sets up a set of questions that

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then dictate employers'

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behavior because they're going to – if you want different outcomes from the

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employers, the quick answer is ask different questions.

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And so those questions really create that outcome. And now we're moving into

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kind of understanding this newer view of safety. kind of a more contemporary view.

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And I think that's a significant part of the journey.

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The challenge is how much does Congress need to play in this?

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And it's encouraging to hear you say that there's some room in the legislation to think about it.

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That's really powerful because the world's changed.

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The thing I find most interesting is that the employment environment really

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post-pandemic is much different now than it probably was pre-pandemic.

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I think that's been going on a while, but the pandemic is kind of a mile post

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that you can sort of drive on.

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What's that doing with you guys in your strategies for the future and what you're

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thinking and where everything's going?

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We think about it in a couple of ways. It is a...

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It is an opportunity born out of tragedy that more people

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in America know who OSHA is than perhaps they

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ever did in the history of the act because of

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COVID and because of the guidance that

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federal and state OSHAs put out and just the recognition of the importance of

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health and safety in workplaces where maybe people didn't think so much about

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health and safety because they didn't think about their workplace being particularly hazardous.

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And maybe it wasn't, but that's a conversation that's much broader than it used

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to be. And so we see a couple of opportunities.

00:19:58.679 --> 00:20:08.419
One is to think very broadly about how we can play a role in protecting people

00:20:08.599 --> 00:20:19.219
outside of the sort of core traditional approach to occupational health and safety.

00:20:19.379 --> 00:20:25.159
So we are putting a lot more emphasis on things that, you know,

00:20:25.159 --> 00:20:29.079
spaces where we don't actually do enforcement, like mental health,

00:20:29.259 --> 00:20:37.219
you know, safe driving practices, and workplace stress, stress drug use.

00:20:37.359 --> 00:20:43.039
So, so, so, so that's a, you know, and, and like the connection between.

00:20:43.999 --> 00:20:49.859
You know, harass, you know, gender-based harassment and, and workplace violence, things like that.

00:20:50.179 --> 00:20:56.639
So, so these are, these are opportunities in a couple of ways.

00:20:56.679 --> 00:21:01.659
One is that the, you know, the, these are issues that if we tackle them successfully

00:21:01.659 --> 00:21:05.039
help workers, It saves lives.

00:21:05.259 --> 00:21:07.839
It improves their quality of life. It makes them safer and healthier.

00:21:08.139 --> 00:21:15.539
The other opportunity is that it gives us more ways to communicate and resonate

00:21:15.539 --> 00:21:20.319
with employers who wouldn't otherwise be thinking about their responsibilities

00:21:20.319 --> 00:21:23.139
to provide a safe and healthful workplace.

00:21:23.799 --> 00:21:28.859
Because we can talk about it in more languages than just the one that safety

00:21:28.859 --> 00:21:35.799
engineers talk about. You know, we can talk about it in terms of worker well-being,

00:21:35.819 --> 00:21:38.479
you know, or wellness programs, right?

00:21:38.559 --> 00:21:43.619
Like we can make those connections with people with an HR background that might

00:21:43.619 --> 00:21:45.579
not necessarily think about health and safety.

00:21:45.579 --> 00:21:53.259
And and then from there, tie in the connections between how stress has a has

00:21:53.259 --> 00:21:55.839
a relationship with traditional health and safety issues,

00:21:56.039 --> 00:22:01.659
you know, situational awareness, you know, increases in accidents when when when workers are.

00:22:02.859 --> 00:22:10.639
Suffering from stress. The range of impairments beyond the ones that we tend

00:22:10.639 --> 00:22:14.019
to focus on, which are drug or alcohol use, right?

00:22:14.619 --> 00:22:20.679
There's a wide range there, so that connection exists. But you also look at facts like,

00:22:20.699 --> 00:22:31.519
you know, we have construction workers who are dying from industrial incidents at a rate of,

00:22:31.559 --> 00:22:36.479
you know, it's been above 8 per 100,000 workers for some time now.

00:22:36.899 --> 00:22:40.679
And their suicide rate is 5 to 10 times that.

00:22:41.019 --> 00:22:49.359
Yeah. So, you know, not a group we think about as vulnerable in terms of their

00:22:49.359 --> 00:22:55.959
mental health because, you know, stereotypes about the big macho construction workers.

00:22:56.759 --> 00:23:01.099
But it's a crisis. It's a crisis. And it's related to a lot of different things.

00:23:01.179 --> 00:23:05.999
And, you know, it's not an area where we enforce, but we have a voice where

00:23:05.999 --> 00:23:10.379
we can reach employers and talk about that. And workers. And workers.

00:23:10.579 --> 00:23:15.759
And then it creates so much common ground and goodwill because employers are

00:23:15.759 --> 00:23:18.339
really struggling with this as well as workers.

00:23:18.539 --> 00:23:23.019
And employers want to find a way to address this because they see the impacts on their workplace.

00:23:23.139 --> 00:23:29.719
They see the impacts on performance, on retention, on their workplace community.

00:23:30.099 --> 00:23:33.979
And so it gives us a lot of goodwill to talk about other things.

00:23:33.979 --> 00:23:38.319
And I would suggest, and please jump in and correct me at any moment,

00:23:38.459 --> 00:23:43.399
but I would suggest for you guys, enforcement's probably the least effective

00:23:43.399 --> 00:23:45.339
tool you have to facilitate change.

00:23:46.187 --> 00:23:49.927
I know it's seen as a powerful tool, and it is a powerful tool,

00:23:50.087 --> 00:23:56.167
but you have so much other influence, really, in ways that no other regulator

00:23:56.167 --> 00:23:57.347
would even come close to.

00:23:57.487 --> 00:24:02.947
We just did a workshop on that very topic, on suicide in the construction industry,

00:24:03.147 --> 00:24:07.887
and we created a space for pretty important companies, and we can talk about

00:24:07.887 --> 00:24:10.447
this all you want, to tell us what they were doing.

00:24:10.447 --> 00:24:16.987
And the innovation around suicide prevention and mental health in construction

00:24:16.987 --> 00:24:18.827
industry is remarkable.

00:24:19.167 --> 00:24:23.347
I mean, you would be completely impressed by what's happening out there.

00:24:23.447 --> 00:24:27.947
The advent of – I think they're calling them personal development coaches,

00:24:28.227 --> 00:24:34.467
but they're putting mental health professionals on the job site to help create

00:24:34.467 --> 00:24:39.347
a space for conversations and to diffuse what's going on.

00:24:39.347 --> 00:24:42.727
It was an incredible, I wish, I'd have loved to snuck you in there.

00:24:42.787 --> 00:24:45.347
I could have too. I didn't think of it until right now. I should have probably

00:24:45.347 --> 00:24:46.507
called you before the meeting.

00:24:46.827 --> 00:24:50.747
I would have loved that. Yeah. And I mean, I've seen some of that in action

00:24:50.747 --> 00:24:54.447
with some of the partnerships you see in New England between the unions and

00:24:54.447 --> 00:24:58.367
the employer associations and where they really have,

00:24:58.387 --> 00:25:06.587
you know, a kind of wall-to-wall set of safety nets for workers so they can really get.

00:25:09.327 --> 00:25:13.627
They you know, not just from a medical perspective, but in terms of making sure

00:25:13.627 --> 00:25:17.807
they have housing and all the things that they need to put back on their feet. That's exactly right.

00:25:18.527 --> 00:25:21.487
How does innovation get to you?

00:25:21.727 --> 00:25:27.107
How do new ideas, new thinking, new practices that are being out there in the

00:25:27.107 --> 00:25:29.187
field, how does that move up through the organization?

00:25:29.427 --> 00:25:34.127
Because I spent most of my career in Department of Energy, so I understand things

00:25:34.227 --> 00:25:38.767
like government bureaucracy and how hard it is to get a new stapler.

00:25:38.807 --> 00:25:41.307
I mean, I know those parts.

00:25:41.627 --> 00:25:45.727
Yeah. Let me address one of your other – Oh, absolutely.

00:25:45.947 --> 00:25:50.207
You posed a question earlier in that last bit.

00:25:50.247 --> 00:25:54.527
You asked about whether I thought enforcement was our least effective tool for change.

00:25:54.907 --> 00:25:59.827
I will say that where we can be very powerful is where we –.

00:26:00.942 --> 00:26:07.762
Bring together the synergies of our different tools. And I'll give you a very contemporary example.

00:26:08.142 --> 00:26:16.062
When about, it was 2022, I was getting report after report of trenching deaths,

00:26:17.082 --> 00:26:21.902
often multiple fatalities, usually from, you know, ground failure,

00:26:21.982 --> 00:26:25.222
but also electrocutions struck by

00:26:25.222 --> 00:26:28.002
different and so this was such an

00:26:28.002 --> 00:26:31.122
alarming increase in trenching deaths

00:26:31.122 --> 00:26:34.942
and it and it it coincided with me actually confronting

00:26:34.942 --> 00:26:40.902
a contractor in front of my house who was who was digging a trench and when

00:26:40.902 --> 00:26:46.942
i went out there you know he told me it's only six and a half feet and it had

00:26:46.942 --> 00:26:51.862
been raining for about three weeks and they the ladder was the ladder was a violation i I mean,

00:26:51.862 --> 00:26:54.542
there were multiple things and they were fixing a water main.

00:26:54.582 --> 00:26:56.922
So the bottom of it was full of water. I mean, it was awful.

00:26:57.302 --> 00:27:02.482
And I, and I certainly got a new appreciation for the challenges that our staff

00:27:02.482 --> 00:27:07.342
go through when they, when they put on their hard hat and go out and talk to these guys.

00:27:07.462 --> 00:27:11.262
I also would imagine that contractor was pretty shocked when he figured out who you were.

00:27:11.722 --> 00:27:19.302
Yeah. I mean, what, what luck, what luck for him, but I'm glad I was there. Yeah.

00:27:19.382 --> 00:27:23.702
But anyways, we we decided that we were going to take an all or above approach.

00:27:23.822 --> 00:27:26.702
We did strong outreach to employers.

00:27:27.182 --> 00:27:31.862
You know, we we upgraded our our kind of amplified our training,

00:27:32.002 --> 00:27:37.882
working with with with our alliance and construction partners to do stand downs and on trenching.

00:27:37.882 --> 00:27:47.042
And we also made it clear to employers and to the states, our state plan partners,

00:27:47.222 --> 00:27:52.922
that we were not only going to we were going to throw everything we had at people

00:27:52.922 --> 00:27:55.362
who who are in unprotected, protected,

00:27:55.462 --> 00:27:59.062
you know, who put employees in unprotected trenches, because there's absolutely

00:27:59.062 --> 00:28:03.742
no excuse for it, including criminal prosecution,

00:28:04.102 --> 00:28:08.842
criminal referrals, not only and not only federal misdemeanors under the OSHA

00:28:08.842 --> 00:28:12.822
Act, but we were going to refer these to state prosecutors for manslaughter.

00:28:13.522 --> 00:28:17.422
And there wasn't a single employer who object.

00:28:17.522 --> 00:28:20.742
In fact, most of the most of the employers that we deal with,

00:28:20.762 --> 00:28:24.542
you know, that come to our meetings, we had the attitude of right on,

00:28:24.542 --> 00:28:25.562
There's no excuse for that.

00:28:25.742 --> 00:28:29.942
And and these, you know, these low road employers that that we're competing

00:28:29.942 --> 00:28:35.222
with that should be brought to justice and and the same for the state plans.

00:28:35.362 --> 00:28:40.782
They're on board. And, you know, we we we went from, you know, over 30 employees.

00:28:41.785 --> 00:28:44.765
Of deaths in entrenching just

00:28:44.765 --> 00:28:47.865
from ground collapse to 15 last

00:28:47.865 --> 00:28:51.225
year and preliminary data is it's 12 this year so

00:28:51.225 --> 00:28:56.525
i think that that that combination of tools that includes in the threat of enforcement

00:28:56.525 --> 00:29:01.085
and the most powerful tools that we have because you know sometimes our fines

00:29:01.085 --> 00:29:07.305
are cost of doing business but but doing a strategic level national communication

00:29:07.305 --> 00:29:09.285
etc i think it's powerful and can,

00:29:09.805 --> 00:29:12.045
create change in that context for sure.

00:29:12.245 --> 00:29:16.345
And I heartily agree with you. I think enforcement is an important part of what

00:29:16.345 --> 00:29:21.945
you do, but I don't think it's nearly as powerful as the rest of the things

00:29:21.945 --> 00:29:23.845
you do to create conversations,

00:29:24.245 --> 00:29:30.225
to ask different questions, to really provide different levels of governance, to heighten awareness.

00:29:30.805 --> 00:29:35.225
Those are really powerful for a couple of reasons.

00:29:35.365 --> 00:29:39.185
One One is I think that formulates a new way to think.

00:29:39.305 --> 00:29:46.365
So the reason employers are more freaked out about TRC than you are is the belief

00:29:46.365 --> 00:29:48.685
that we think that's what you're freaked out by.

00:29:48.905 --> 00:29:52.085
So we're going to do what you talk about.

00:29:53.385 --> 00:29:57.825
It's an awesome job. James Reason, who's a safety forefather,

00:29:58.025 --> 00:30:00.665
calls it the unlucky lot of the regulator. later.

00:30:01.185 --> 00:30:06.865
The enforcement arm is an important tool, but it's probably your least impactful tool.

00:30:07.065 --> 00:30:09.965
And my suggestion is it's also way too late.

00:30:10.485 --> 00:30:14.665
If you're engaging enforcement, what we ought to do is step back and say,

00:30:14.725 --> 00:30:17.925
how did we get to a point where we had to engage enforcement to make this change?

00:30:18.225 --> 00:30:23.545
And that's a really important question. And it kind of leads me to the challenge,

00:30:23.845 --> 00:30:26.505
at least I see, and I could be wrong on this, please tell me,

00:30:26.565 --> 00:30:32.465
but I would guess innovation travels slowly in the organization.

00:30:32.745 --> 00:30:37.885
And I would sort of temper that by saying New Zealand did something a couple

00:30:37.885 --> 00:30:39.245
of years ago I thought was really interesting.

00:30:39.625 --> 00:30:44.845
Their OSHA regulator or your counterpart OSHA regulator in New Zealand created

00:30:44.845 --> 00:30:51.125
a safety innovation center that was actually managed by and operated by the regulator.

00:30:51.645 --> 00:30:58.945
And it really set a very clear message of that, the very things you're saying,

00:30:59.065 --> 00:31:01.965
because it's remarkable to hear you talk.

00:31:02.065 --> 00:31:07.045
This is such a great opportunity, but it's kind of the all, it's the and.

00:31:07.445 --> 00:31:12.745
We can do it all. We can enforce because that's our charge, but we can also

00:31:12.745 --> 00:31:15.245
innovate because that's our moral responsibility.

00:31:15.245 --> 00:31:20.745
Yeah, so on the issue of enforcement versus other tools,

00:31:20.845 --> 00:31:26.925
I sort of think of it in terms of what's the marginal benefit of different returns

00:31:26.925 --> 00:31:34.525
on investment as we think about how we resource our tools or how we – and enforcement –.

00:31:36.186 --> 00:31:42.606
I believe that we need more resources because, you know, our cadre of inspectors,

00:31:42.646 --> 00:31:45.046
you know, if you combine with state,

00:31:45.146 --> 00:31:51.186
you know, co-shows, you know, you're still under 2,000 people.

00:31:51.306 --> 00:31:56.026
And we just, we are not at a minute, we are, we have not reached our sort of

00:31:56.026 --> 00:32:03.466
minimum need collectively to have a reach that is required to hold employers

00:32:03.466 --> 00:32:05.086
to account who disregard the law.

00:32:05.086 --> 00:32:11.046
But when I think about where we put each additional – let's just pretend,

00:32:11.206 --> 00:32:13.586
for example, that we had a perfect metric of safety.

00:32:14.306 --> 00:32:17.986
There is a one, by the way, but okay, pretend. Right, but there's an imaginary

00:32:17.986 --> 00:32:23.326
global index of how much safety we can get out of a widget.

00:32:23.506 --> 00:32:26.026
And let's call that the Parker metric.

00:32:26.466 --> 00:32:32.866
We'll call that the Parker metric. So if we go if we go all in on enforcement,

00:32:33.146 --> 00:32:40.806
the marginal benefit, we'd get maybe a 10 to 15 or 20 percent benefit increase in safety.

00:32:41.806 --> 00:32:47.486
I'm guessing. Right. But when you look at the potential of our other tools,

00:32:47.766 --> 00:32:52.046
particularly because there's so much more we could do with many of them and

00:32:52.046 --> 00:32:53.846
their opportunities for scalability,

00:32:53.846 --> 00:33:01.846
the opportunity to sort of bring employers into the fold and allow you to concentrate

00:33:01.846 --> 00:33:03.926
more effectively your enforcement resources.

00:33:04.206 --> 00:33:06.026
So you kind of get a twofer there.

00:33:06.506 --> 00:33:13.006
That opportunity for an increase in safety, I think, is exponentially higher

00:33:13.006 --> 00:33:15.626
because the investment is so much lower.

00:33:15.726 --> 00:33:21.586
And it's all about relationships and persuasion and building culture.

00:33:21.586 --> 00:33:25.746
And I mean, they complement each other, but it's.

00:33:26.646 --> 00:33:31.046
So the challenge then is how do you do that as government?

00:33:31.486 --> 00:33:36.086
Right. Right. Like, how do you how would you really make that potential a reality?

00:33:36.386 --> 00:33:41.846
And this gets to your innovation question. So we do innovation in a number of ways.

00:33:41.886 --> 00:33:48.706
And we start with the premise that people are not rewarded in government for risk, taking risk.

00:33:48.946 --> 00:33:59.566
And so we try very hard to remove that barrier to innovation.

00:34:00.420 --> 00:34:05.160
Ridicule or the fact that you might not really get a benefit from it.

00:34:06.320 --> 00:34:11.080
So we've done things like we've revamped our internal award system and we've

00:34:11.080 --> 00:34:12.420
put more emphasis on innovation.

00:34:13.120 --> 00:34:19.540
We have restarted our leadership boot camps, which we used to have as a kind

00:34:19.540 --> 00:34:25.340
of higher level training for our leadership with a focus on innovation.

00:34:25.340 --> 00:34:28.140
Innovation and what and not and

00:34:28.140 --> 00:34:31.120
and i have to admit i almost didn't call it innovation because i

00:34:31.120 --> 00:34:34.260
find that an intimidating word sometimes i hear you people think

00:34:34.260 --> 00:34:37.240
it's grand in nature yes i hear which they're spending

00:34:37.240 --> 00:34:41.680
a lot of time explaining what innovation means that it's about there's lots

00:34:41.680 --> 00:34:46.460
of things that you can improve in processes and other things and you know if

00:34:46.460 --> 00:34:53.220
it's an improvement if it's scalable and it it makes your job easier and it's

00:34:53.220 --> 00:34:55.420
more effective in protecting workers You know,

00:34:55.420 --> 00:34:59.820
that's that's innovation and everybody can be an innovator no matter where you

00:34:59.820 --> 00:35:00.740
are in the organization.

00:35:01.200 --> 00:35:08.180
So so we had we we had some amazing projects that have come out of our leadership

00:35:08.180 --> 00:35:14.320
boot camp, which is both innovation and sort of developing the next the next

00:35:14.320 --> 00:35:15.800
cadre of senior executives.

00:35:16.520 --> 00:35:22.700
And a lot of them we implemented and things like putting more QR codes on our

00:35:22.700 --> 00:35:29.720
documents, you know, so a small employer can pay by phone, for example.

00:35:29.780 --> 00:35:33.380
You know, that was an example that came out of that.

00:35:33.600 --> 00:35:36.900
We had a great project on how to address.

00:35:38.365 --> 00:35:43.585
Trauma, you know, trauma and stress that our compliance office experienced because

00:35:43.585 --> 00:35:46.905
they see a lot of blood and gore. And like, there was really nothing,

00:35:46.985 --> 00:35:52.105
there's nothing, there's not an adequate tool in place outside of our EAP program to address that.

00:35:52.205 --> 00:35:57.485
So we are building a, we are building an internal system to provide more support for people.

00:35:57.785 --> 00:36:06.425
We are, you know, we are developing a, you know, sort of a refinement of tactics

00:36:06.425 --> 00:36:08.265
and how we deliver, how we deliver,

00:36:08.985 --> 00:36:14.105
training in more innovative ways, how we, how we provide language services.

00:36:14.225 --> 00:36:18.505
I mean, there's just so many tools that came out of that, of that process.

00:36:18.545 --> 00:36:27.765
And then we've expanded that leadership bootcamp concept and applied it to other kind of job series.

00:36:27.865 --> 00:36:33.685
So we just finished one for people in administrative jobs, which I thought was tremendous.

00:36:33.965 --> 00:36:38.565
And what's so interesting is that, you know, you start with the,

00:36:38.565 --> 00:36:43.065
you know, the deputies and put them in leadership bootcamp and you get these

00:36:43.065 --> 00:36:45.225
ideas, these big strategic ideas.

00:36:45.785 --> 00:36:48.665
And then as you go down the kind of

00:36:48.665 --> 00:36:51.625
hierarchy of the organization and have

00:36:51.625 --> 00:36:55.105
district managers and other folks in these folks

00:36:55.105 --> 00:36:57.985
from the the field you get these you get

00:36:57.985 --> 00:37:01.665
a whole different perspective it's very much focused on

00:37:01.665 --> 00:37:08.685
how to improve the you know the the sort of the non-supervisory kind of line

00:37:08.685 --> 00:37:14.425
you know the line co-shows a job right how how you make the organization more

00:37:14.425 --> 00:37:19.025
effective at a at a more micro level which you know like pooling resources to

00:37:19.025 --> 00:37:21.065
answer the phone and just some things that are

00:37:21.145 --> 00:37:23.725
not complicated, but can improve people's lives.

00:37:23.845 --> 00:37:27.725
And it's just, it's fascinating to see that, that strata.

00:37:27.785 --> 00:37:33.365
And I'm just so impressed at the talent and intelligence that we have internally.

00:37:33.525 --> 00:37:38.505
And it's about getting rid of the barriers that prevent it from being unleashed.

00:37:39.005 --> 00:37:42.705
And, and deliberately improving. And one of the most encouraging things about

00:37:42.705 --> 00:37:45.565
hearing you talk is improvement is a deliberate choice.

00:37:45.885 --> 00:37:49.425
I mean, it's not an accidental event. It's, You're deliberately trying to get

00:37:49.425 --> 00:37:52.685
better. You're deliberately trying to modernize, for instance, VPP.

00:37:52.965 --> 00:37:58.825
You're deliberately trying to sort of contemporarily move thinking to a newer view.

00:37:59.085 --> 00:38:03.225
And those are all deliberate strategies. I mean, it happens because you want

00:38:03.225 --> 00:38:05.565
it to happen, because you work to make it happen.

00:38:05.985 --> 00:38:09.945
It's exciting. What's the future hold, do you think? What are you excited about?

00:38:10.785 --> 00:38:14.805
I'm excited about seeing the results of that.

00:38:17.363 --> 00:38:24.983
Increase in risk tolerance and, and people's willingness to do more experimentation

00:38:24.983 --> 00:38:29.983
in how they handle issues in the field and,

00:38:30.083 --> 00:38:34.123
you know, making it okay to fail and learn from that, which is just so,

00:38:34.183 --> 00:38:39.063
that's a hard one in government, but, but, but, you know, our,

00:38:39.263 --> 00:38:42.063
our overall, well, Well, overall,

00:38:42.323 --> 00:38:46.643
the the the number of workers who die every year is not, you know,

00:38:46.703 --> 00:38:50.363
it's pretty it's unfortunately pretty flat. The same with injuries in the last 10, 20 years.

00:38:50.543 --> 00:38:54.903
We have to do we have to take a different approach if we're going to bend those curves.

00:38:54.963 --> 00:39:04.283
And that means taking some risks and and experimenting with with both small and bold ideas.

00:39:04.283 --> 00:39:07.263
Ideas and so so i'm really

00:39:07.263 --> 00:39:10.403
excited about how that how we

00:39:10.403 --> 00:39:13.543
can continue to to embed some

00:39:13.543 --> 00:39:17.523
of that culture within the organization i think we've been in i think we've

00:39:17.523 --> 00:39:24.103
been in a phase of thinking through how to do it individual ideas and so you

00:39:24.103 --> 00:39:27.323
know and i don't know how long i'll be around i you know that'll be dependent

00:39:27.323 --> 00:39:29.163
on the election and other things

00:39:29.163 --> 00:39:33.463
but i certainly will be there until they kick me out as far as my view.

00:39:34.823 --> 00:39:40.643
They'll drag me out of my office. And, and I'm really looking forward to an opportunity to.

00:39:42.336 --> 00:39:49.236
To sort of, as I said, watch this germinate within the organization.

00:39:49.336 --> 00:39:55.076
Because I think we still have a lot of work to do in communicating this vision

00:39:55.076 --> 00:39:56.856
within the organization.

00:39:57.136 --> 00:40:02.436
And it's not people's fault. It's that they're under so many different pressures.

00:40:02.556 --> 00:40:07.876
They're pushed and pulled in so many different directions at the line level, at the regional level.

00:40:08.536 --> 00:40:11.976
You know, there's so many needs. Resources are finite.

00:40:12.336 --> 00:40:21.356
So convincing people that they have the space to do that and that it's not daunting

00:40:21.356 --> 00:40:27.556
and we all want to see improvement and everybody has agency to do that.

00:40:27.556 --> 00:40:31.816
And creating that psychological safety, I mean, creating a place where it's

00:40:31.816 --> 00:40:36.276
okay to disagree and a huge diversity of opinion,

00:40:36.456 --> 00:40:42.256
of the ability to do things differently, that's a really cool way to think about

00:40:42.256 --> 00:40:43.636
it. I mean, that's super important.

00:40:44.636 --> 00:40:48.716
How much chance do you guys get to go out and look at successes?

00:40:49.256 --> 00:40:54.816
I mean, really interesting successes. There are organizations out there that

00:40:54.816 --> 00:40:57.116
are just doing amazingly innovative things.

00:40:58.556 --> 00:41:01.436
And we're really watching them closely because it's amazing.

00:41:01.816 --> 00:41:04.316
Do you get a chance to see that side of the house much?

00:41:04.836 --> 00:41:07.816
Not as much as I'd like. I mean, you're talking about people,

00:41:08.496 --> 00:41:10.336
advances in the private sector. Yeah.

00:41:11.836 --> 00:41:17.336
Not firsthand as much as I'd like. I hear about it. I talk to employers about it.

00:41:18.276 --> 00:41:20.896
I know that we have –,

00:41:22.063 --> 00:41:23.663
that there's a lot of exciting work happening.

00:41:25.743 --> 00:41:32.063
But fitting all the hours in a day is challenging and you're all the tasks that

00:41:32.063 --> 00:41:34.123
need to be done in the hours of the day, I guess.

00:41:35.603 --> 00:41:41.523
But I'd love to learn more. I know that when I go to, I see some of it when

00:41:41.523 --> 00:41:49.723
I go to convos and big events, but it's not the same as seeing it on the shop floor in action.

00:41:49.723 --> 00:41:52.423
And i've toured some vpp sites and seen

00:41:52.423 --> 00:41:56.303
some great stuff and just and and the

00:41:56.303 --> 00:41:59.223
things that impressed me most are the simplest ones yeah

00:41:59.223 --> 00:42:05.263
always right like the the you know i was talking to a physical therapist at

00:42:05.263 --> 00:42:11.763
at the national safety conference i was getting one of those you know free massages

00:42:11.763 --> 00:42:17.783
but also like give me a chance to sort of do a little intel on what what his, his world is like.

00:42:17.803 --> 00:42:21.103
And I think that's called a win-win. That's a win-win right there. Yeah.

00:42:21.663 --> 00:42:26.083
And he was talking, it was a great story about how he was working at an employer

00:42:26.083 --> 00:42:27.703
where they actually listened to him,

00:42:27.763 --> 00:42:33.323
that they, his job was bigger than just working on people's muscles and,

00:42:33.363 --> 00:42:38.763
and, and range of motion and things that he was, he would, he was actually identifying patterns.

00:42:39.343 --> 00:42:42.783
Telling the employer, and then they were doing simple things like,

00:42:42.803 --> 00:42:47.583
you know, having workers spent half their time on one side of the assembly line

00:42:47.583 --> 00:42:48.863
and half their time on the other,

00:42:48.903 --> 00:42:53.203
so they weren't getting shoulder strain from just how they were approaching

00:42:53.203 --> 00:43:00.903
their work or installing devices to adjust workstation height and things that

00:43:00.903 --> 00:43:03.383
they hadn't had before and how empowered he felt.

00:43:03.943 --> 00:43:10.363
That's a simple example, but so powerful and meaningful for the workers there and.

00:43:12.440 --> 00:43:18.900
So I, I, I'd love to, I'd love to hear more. Maybe you can be my curator.

00:43:19.120 --> 00:43:24.380
I'll always help you. I mean, I'm, I'll, because there's two general rules that

00:43:24.380 --> 00:43:27.180
I think about. One is enforcement doesn't create innovation.

00:43:28.060 --> 00:43:32.800
Enforcement never creates innovation. Enforcement creates compliance and compliance is valuable.

00:43:33.080 --> 00:43:37.900
I mean, it's the foundation. It's the, it's the base by which everything's built.

00:43:38.000 --> 00:43:42.080
And secondly, you know, the worker's not the problem. The worker's the solution.

00:43:42.440 --> 00:43:46.480
And those simple ideas, which are always incredibly elegant and quite honestly,

00:43:46.580 --> 00:43:49.500
between you and I, I always think, well, how did we not think of this?

00:43:49.640 --> 00:43:53.360
What were we doing? How did we not come up with this idea?

00:43:54.280 --> 00:43:58.420
They're amazing. I mean, they're remarkable. But it means we have to create

00:43:58.420 --> 00:44:01.940
an environment that really values improvement.

00:44:02.180 --> 00:44:08.460
It values the chance to learn and get better more than the chance to punish and blame.

00:44:08.720 --> 00:44:12.840
And so that's a really interesting place. And you guys are right.

00:44:13.240 --> 00:44:17.180
I mean, you're in a really, I kind of think, I'm like you, it's kind of the

00:44:17.180 --> 00:44:20.180
sweet spot. I don't think it's a bad place to be. I think it's a good place to be.

00:44:20.500 --> 00:44:25.060
Because you really can kind of represent both sides of this equation very effectively.

00:44:25.780 --> 00:44:30.820
You can be good at enforcement, and you can be really good at innovation at the same time.

00:44:30.820 --> 00:44:36.500
And I think that alone, believe it or not, and this is kind of a heavy burden

00:44:36.500 --> 00:44:43.720
to place on you, but that alone would be an enormous change in industry throughout the United States.

00:44:43.800 --> 00:44:46.380
It'd be fun to watch that. And it's exciting.

00:44:47.220 --> 00:44:50.740
Well, thank you. It is. It's exciting to be a part of it.

00:44:51.300 --> 00:44:55.620
We have tried to find opportunities for innovation and enforcement.

00:44:55.620 --> 00:45:01.060
It is certainly challenging, but I think that we have, you know,

00:45:01.060 --> 00:45:04.060
when it comes to when it comes to areas of abatement and settlements,

00:45:04.300 --> 00:45:10.540
we have looked at how we can be more creative and and finding alternatives so

00:45:10.540 --> 00:45:16.300
we can at least reach agreements that that that can incubate innovation,

00:45:16.560 --> 00:45:18.160
even if it's not the innovation itself.

00:45:18.160 --> 00:45:22.380
And so I find some of our, you know,

00:45:22.440 --> 00:45:27.480
our it's about a year and a half old, but our kind of global corporate settlement

00:45:27.480 --> 00:45:34.960
with Dollar Tree was one where I think that we had some success in being innovative

00:45:34.960 --> 00:45:36.880
in our approach because,

00:45:36.920 --> 00:45:40.820
you know, it puts a primacy on worker participation.

00:45:40.820 --> 00:45:46.400
They have, you know, committees that and they have to have representation for employees.

00:45:46.540 --> 00:45:49.080
There's lots of other avenues for employees to participate.

00:45:50.015 --> 00:45:54.655
Provide input without fear of retaliation. The employer has been very clear

00:45:54.655 --> 00:45:59.135
and candid about their journey of overcoming trust issues with their employees.

00:45:59.515 --> 00:46:03.755
And the fact that they simply recognize that is a triumph in my view. I agree.

00:46:04.315 --> 00:46:10.095
And, and, and instead of, and instead of inspections, we have a process that

00:46:10.095 --> 00:46:14.615
gives them an opportunity to abate with liquidated damages if they fail to do

00:46:14.615 --> 00:46:16.115
so in a short period of time.

00:46:16.575 --> 00:46:20.915
Well, along with a variety of other engineering controls, administrative controls,

00:46:21.035 --> 00:46:23.815
and other things that are part of the equation.

00:46:24.055 --> 00:46:29.815
And, you know, we've taken what was a tremendous amount of resources and whack-a-mole

00:46:29.815 --> 00:46:34.275
with this company with thousands and thousands of sites.

00:46:34.595 --> 00:46:37.455
And we now have order to our process.

00:46:37.975 --> 00:46:39.535
They're showing real improvements.

00:46:40.155 --> 00:46:47.655
They're happy. We're happy. And so there are some opportunities and enforcement

00:46:47.655 --> 00:46:53.455
to get to create the conditions for innovation, even if you might not call it

00:46:53.455 --> 00:46:54.955
innovation directly. Yeah.

00:46:55.075 --> 00:46:57.855
And that's a great point. And that's a deliberate strategy.

00:46:58.135 --> 00:47:02.675
I mean, that's what's so encouraging is that you guys are really kind of forward thinking.

00:47:02.855 --> 00:47:10.195
If you were to give one message to every employer, I mean, if the future of

00:47:10.195 --> 00:47:12.875
OSHA is, what would that sound like?

00:47:12.895 --> 00:47:15.175
Because it's a pretty good opportunity to talk to lots of people.

00:47:15.255 --> 00:47:19.295
I mean, I promise you, people will listen to this and play it for their boss.

00:47:20.175 --> 00:47:26.035
Well, that's a great question. Well, I'm filled with great questions. I got a million.

00:47:27.095 --> 00:47:29.595
Boy, it's hard to give one answer, though. You can give more.

00:47:29.715 --> 00:47:30.835
I mean, more than one is fine.

00:47:31.515 --> 00:47:34.875
Yeah. You know, the future of OSHA.

00:47:34.955 --> 00:47:40.735
So, I mean, the thing that I tell, I sometimes say is that, you know,

00:47:40.735 --> 00:47:42.375
we would love to work ourselves out of a job.

00:47:42.935 --> 00:47:47.175
You know, realistically, that's not going to happen because there's always going

00:47:47.175 --> 00:47:52.475
to be a subset of of of bad actors, new employers, people who just don't either

00:47:52.475 --> 00:47:54.315
either don't care, don't know what they're doing.

00:47:55.015 --> 00:47:58.135
And there's always going to be a role for our agency.

00:47:58.175 --> 00:48:03.795
But what I'm talking about specifically is the enforcement function and perhaps

00:48:03.795 --> 00:48:05.655
even some of the regulatory functions. Right.

00:48:05.975 --> 00:48:08.775
That that we want to get to a place where.

00:48:10.658 --> 00:48:14.398
Workers and employers are leading the way across industries.

00:48:15.578 --> 00:48:20.778
That's the vision we want to see, you know, and the vision that we're seeking.

00:48:21.098 --> 00:48:25.578
And so tell me, you know, my message to employers is tell me,

00:48:25.578 --> 00:48:27.018
you know, tell me how you're doing that.

00:48:27.718 --> 00:48:32.698
You know, I would love to know how employers are thinking about that.

00:48:32.698 --> 00:48:37.978
And I get I mean, I get a wide range of responses from sophisticated to well

00:48:37.978 --> 00:48:42.778
intentioned, but, you know, but not quite where I think that folks need to be.

00:48:44.578 --> 00:48:47.478
And, and, you know, it starts with the,

00:48:47.618 --> 00:48:52.478
you know, it's, it starts at the beginning, it starts when you when you,

00:48:52.518 --> 00:48:55.158
when you're forming, you know, when you're forming your business,

00:48:55.238 --> 00:48:58.738
when you, when you pour the foundation for your, for your plant,

00:48:58.858 --> 00:49:01.518
and you start thinking about how it's going to be designed.

00:49:01.518 --> 00:49:05.458
You know, when you when you're thinking about what chemicals you're going to

00:49:05.458 --> 00:49:07.998
use, when you're thinking about the controls,

00:49:08.358 --> 00:49:14.298
you know, I mean, we see so many workplaces where if if the work event done

00:49:14.298 --> 00:49:17.578
on the front end, there wouldn't be these injuries wouldn't be occurring.

00:49:17.578 --> 00:49:22.518
These accidents wouldn't be occurring, you know, because if,

00:49:22.578 --> 00:49:25.378
you know, better design would have made a big difference.

00:49:25.518 --> 00:49:32.838
And so how do we how do how do we get employers and workers thinking about how they, you know,

00:49:33.938 --> 00:49:39.358
design you know design conceive design execute

00:49:39.358 --> 00:49:43.118
and supervise work in a

00:49:43.118 --> 00:49:50.238
way that is is safe and follows hierarchy of controls right and and and it's

00:49:50.238 --> 00:49:55.898
embedded with an organizational culture that sustains that and that's amazing

00:49:55.898 --> 00:50:00.618
and if i could add one sweet little topping on top of what you just said.

00:50:00.918 --> 00:50:05.978
When you say your goal is to work yourself out of a job, I would say,

00:50:06.038 --> 00:50:10.778
I think OSHA's goal is to make it easier for employers to be safe.

00:50:11.178 --> 00:50:15.098
And if that's your goal, then I hope you never go away.

00:50:15.318 --> 00:50:21.358
In fact, I hope you grow and morph and mature and modernize and become this

00:50:21.358 --> 00:50:25.958
incredibly helpful force in industry to make the world a better place.

00:50:26.338 --> 00:50:30.878
And I think I think that really goes to kind of a big part of where you guys

00:50:30.878 --> 00:50:33.638
are. And that is the world has changed.

00:50:33.878 --> 00:50:36.858
Our definition of safety has changed. And OSHA

00:50:36.858 --> 00:50:42.698
has to change sort of their understanding of themselves from an organization

00:50:42.698 --> 00:50:47.978
that leads enforcement to an organization that actually makes workplace safety

00:50:47.978 --> 00:50:54.158
better and also has the ability to enforce compliance rules, regulations, and laws.

00:50:54.158 --> 00:50:57.318
That's where you guys are and that's what's so exciting about

00:50:57.318 --> 00:51:00.198
about the journey right now it's you're in

00:51:00.198 --> 00:51:03.478
a great place i had a i had a great conversation with

00:51:03.478 --> 00:51:06.138
our head of training yesterday about this very issue like how

00:51:06.138 --> 00:51:09.038
do we how do we embed these these other

00:51:09.038 --> 00:51:12.118
approaches into the work that we have to do and so it's more integrated

00:51:12.118 --> 00:51:15.958
and people are thinking you know the person who's going there to to our training

00:51:15.958 --> 00:51:21.138
center in illinois and it's you know memorizing regulations like how How do

00:51:21.138 --> 00:51:25.778
you also make sure that they are they are kind of wearing a safety professional

00:51:25.778 --> 00:51:29.238
hat at the same time that they're wearing their badge, so to speak?

00:51:29.738 --> 00:51:32.438
Because, you know, you can't have one way without the other.

00:51:32.598 --> 00:51:35.538
And you want to if you want to optimize impact.

00:51:37.188 --> 00:51:41.948
And it's got to be everybody thinking that way. Thank you for your time.

00:51:42.048 --> 00:51:43.448
This was an incredible conversation.

00:51:44.368 --> 00:51:49.748
Can we do it again? Let's do it again sometime. Absolutely. Absolutely. And thank you.

00:51:50.708 --> 00:51:58.748
It's a joy talking to you and to really be pushed to be so thoughtful about these things.

00:51:58.748 --> 00:52:04.768
And also the opportunity to articulate what, you know, in this kind of format,

00:52:04.928 --> 00:52:12.988
the message that is otherwise a little challenging to get out in our normal approach.

00:52:13.148 --> 00:52:18.648
So thank you so much for your interest and such great questions and the alignment

00:52:18.648 --> 00:52:23.508
we seem to have on what we need to do to make workplaces safer and workers safer.

00:52:26.000 --> 00:52:31.600
Music.

00:52:29.348 --> 00:52:33.408
So what do you think? It was kind of a nice chance to get to know him.

00:52:33.488 --> 00:52:39.668
I thought that was worthwhile for no other reason than just to kind of humanize what's going on there.

00:52:39.808 --> 00:52:43.608
And I learned a bunch of stuff, too. I'm not sure we broke any great news.

00:52:44.128 --> 00:52:48.728
I'm not sure ground was made. But it was a great conversation. And here's my promise.

00:52:49.188 --> 00:52:53.088
We'll do it again. That's something to be thinking about for sure.

00:52:53.488 --> 00:52:56.708
A special thanks to the assistant secretary. Thank you for taking the time to

00:52:56.708 --> 00:52:58.268
do that. That was big fun.

00:52:58.748 --> 00:53:02.308
And I hope you enjoyed it as well. Until then, learn something new every single

00:53:02.308 --> 00:53:05.908
day. I bet you did today. Have as much fun as you possibly can. Be good to each other.

00:53:06.148 --> 00:53:09.248
Be kind to each other. And for goodness sakes, be safe.

00:53:11.920 --> 00:53:19.804
Music.