PAPod 519 - Good Gets Better, Bad Gets Worse: Navigating Change and Safety

WEBVTT 00:00:00.017 --> 00:00:06.097 Good gets better, and bad gets worse. We're so sad. 00:00:08.720 --> 00:00:17.200 Music. 00:00:16.777 --> 00:00:19.977 Hey everybody, Todd Conklin, Pre-Accident Investigation Podcast.

00:00:19.977 --> 00:00:24.297 How are you? It's time once again for an exciting podcast. 00:00:24.957 --> 00:00:29.177 So, what did you think about last week's podcast? Hmm.

00:00:30.017 --> 00:00:33.817 Huh? Hmm. I've gotten a lot of feedback from it. 00:00:34.417 --> 00:00:39.077 And it's been actually, for the most part, completely positive, which is good.

00:00:39.297 --> 00:00:44.137 I was really pleased to get to do it. And I hope you found it interesting. 00:00:44.297 --> 00:00:48.497 If you haven't listened, it's probably worthwhile to go back and listen. 00:00:48.497 --> 00:00:54.357 It was an interesting discussion with the OSHA administrator, 00:00:54.657 --> 00:00:58.097 the assistant secretary of labor of the United States of America, 00:00:58.097 --> 00:01:00.697 who does occupational safety and health.

00:01:01.157 --> 00:01:05.157 And so he's the administrator for Doug is the administrator. 00:01:05.557 --> 00:01:09.817 He said I could call him Doug. I'm not rubbing that in you guys, but that's how it goes. 00:01:09.977 --> 00:01:15.617 But I hope you found the pod interesting and enlightening.

00:01:16.197 --> 00:01:23.897 I was looking for some indicators of what's up to come, what's around the corner, what's in the future. 00:01:25.065 --> 00:01:30.085 I don't think I dug into that enough, but the timing was what the timing was. 00:01:30.545 --> 00:01:35.025 But I could ask anything. I mean, no pre-prepared.

They were totally open. 00:01:35.145 --> 00:01:38.425 They didn't want to hear what questions I was going to ask. They just wanted 00:01:38.425 --> 00:01:40.865 to chat. It was just an opportunity to talk.

00:01:41.345 --> 00:01:46.225 And that's what we did. And it went really well. And I had a good time. 00:01:46.385 --> 00:01:47.805 And I hope you enjoyed it immensely.

00:01:48.625 --> 00:01:51.605 That would be the key, that you had a good time listening to it. 00:01:51.645 --> 00:01:55.945 There's lots more great stuff coming up. How's everything with you? 00:01:56.965 --> 00:02:00.405 It's getting to be the crazy time of year.

00:02:00.745 --> 00:02:06.445 The good thing about this crazy time of year is that it's generally crazy globally. 00:02:07.005 --> 00:02:13.565 So there's just a lot going on no matter where you are, whichever hemisphere you're hanging out in. 00:02:13.985 --> 00:02:20.005 There's craziness going on. In the United States, it's especially nutty because 00:02:20.005 --> 00:02:28.065 this is the time of our season when we have an election that is soon around the corner, 00:02:28.405 --> 00:02:37.685 which means there have been 500 million texts received by telephones across 00:02:37.685 --> 00:02:43.565 the United States and probably a bazillion and a half.

maybe I'm, that's rough estimate. 00:02:43.805 --> 00:02:48.845 It could be a plus or minus two, a bazillion and a half plus or minus two spam 00:02:48.845 --> 00:02:50.345 phone calls that you don't answer. 00:02:50.945 --> 00:02:53.825 At least if your phone is anything like my phone. 00:02:54.205 --> 00:02:57.245 So, but it's, it's also an interesting time just because it's, 00:02:57.345 --> 00:03:01.845 this is kind of when stuff happens and work's going crazy.

00:03:02.205 --> 00:03:07.945 And depending on where you are, there's big discussions of budgets and I'm getting 00:03:07.945 --> 00:03:13.085 visitors from, from people who care about income taxes and stuff like that. 00:03:13.185 --> 00:03:18.785 And so, yeah, it's, it's a pretty zany time to be alive. That is for sure. 00:03:19.781 --> 00:03:25.841 Things are good.

I mean, I'm still on the same bicycle and I'm gutting it out, 00:03:26.101 --> 00:03:28.061 still riding as much as I put. 00:03:28.141 --> 00:03:32.241 In fact, I'm about to go on a bike ride as soon as I finish talking to you. 00:03:32.361 --> 00:03:38.161 So that's a little plan, even though it's a little bit chillier here because 00:03:38.161 --> 00:03:39.821 it's fall, it's autumn for us. 00:03:39.821 --> 00:03:45.361 But as I've told you before a million times, autumn in New Mexico is maybe the 00:03:45.361 --> 00:03:50.701 best time of the whole year because the place just smells good.

00:03:50.701 --> 00:03:56.461 And they're roasting chilies, green chilies, and they roast them in this big 00:03:56.461 --> 00:03:59.241 roasting machine in front of stores. 00:03:59.721 --> 00:04:05.101 And what they're doing when they roast them is they're cooking the chili pepper, the vegetable. 00:04:05.101 --> 00:04:12.361 But what they're really doing is roasting it with a pretty hot flame to burn 00:04:12.361 --> 00:04:16.621 the skin of the chili pepper off the chili. 00:04:17.001 --> 00:04:20.561 And so then they take them out of that roaster.

So that'll take maybe, 00:04:20.721 --> 00:04:23.801 I'll make up a time, but like seven and a half minutes to roast them. 00:04:23.941 --> 00:04:28.361 And they put them in a drum that's made of expanded steel. So it looks like a screen. 00:04:28.981 --> 00:04:32.201 And it's got these torches that torch the chilies.

00:04:32.421 --> 00:04:35.761 And they hand crank them. Well, some fancy places have motors, 00:04:36.061 --> 00:04:42.061 but most of the places I go to, you know, you hand crank it and you roast it for seven minutes or so. 00:04:42.401 --> 00:04:46.681 And then you take it and dump it in a bag and tie the bag shut as tightly as 00:04:46.681 --> 00:04:48.241 you can and let them sweat. 00:04:48.781 --> 00:04:50.461 Make them sweat.

Make them sweat. 00:04:50.920 --> 00:04:56.180 And then after the chili's cooled down so you can handle them and they've sweated 00:04:56.180 --> 00:05:01.000 in that bag for a pretty good long time, not too long because that would be weird. 00:05:01.460 --> 00:05:07.280 Then you pull them out and peel the chili, which is pretty easy to do because you've just roasted it. 00:05:07.500 --> 00:05:12.380 And then you re-bag them into smaller bags and freeze them and they can become 00:05:12.380 --> 00:05:17.260 enchiladas or green chili cheeseburgers or whatever you want to do with the 00:05:17.260 --> 00:05:18.520 chili for the whole rest of the year.

00:05:18.520 --> 00:05:22.540 And it's kind of interesting when you put chilies up like that because it's 00:05:22.540 --> 00:05:24.620 traditionally something everybody does. 00:05:25.020 --> 00:05:28.760 So it's, at least in my community, it's a real shared event. 00:05:29.040 --> 00:05:35.060 And we all do it and we all talk about it. And there are really good chilies at this place.

00:05:35.180 --> 00:05:37.220 And, oh, don't buy the chilies at this place this year. 00:05:37.460 --> 00:05:40.160 And these are hot and these are not as hot and these are mild. 00:05:40.680 --> 00:05:44.640 And then you serve them the whole year and you hope you get enough. 00:05:45.280 --> 00:05:52.260 It's less of a problem now because you can buy them at the store.

So it's not a giant deal. 00:05:52.400 --> 00:05:55.700 But in the old days, you kind of had to get enough because if you didn't have 00:05:55.700 --> 00:05:57.000 enough, then there weren't enough. 00:05:57.260 --> 00:05:59.240 So chili roasting is going on right now. 00:05:59.620 --> 00:06:05.500 And then there's a giant balloon fiesta in a city named Albuquerque that's really fun.

00:06:05.660 --> 00:06:10.660 And then just all sorts of things going on. I mean, it's a good time to be around. 00:06:10.660 --> 00:06:15.700 It's a very good time to be here. And I'm trying to practice being really more 00:06:15.700 --> 00:06:21.320 appreciative and make sure that I'm enjoying things the way I should be enjoying them.

00:06:21.560 --> 00:06:25.200 Because sometimes I think I get a little wrapped up in other stuff, 00:06:26.020 --> 00:06:30.680 you know, pressures and work and people who hates you now and who loves you 00:06:30.680 --> 00:06:32.940 now and that kind of stuff. It's very weird. 00:06:33.200 --> 00:06:36.720 I mean, that's all kind of a part of the journey. But nonetheless, 00:06:36.960 --> 00:06:38.940 it's an interesting time to be around.

00:06:39.140 --> 00:06:42.220 And it's a really interesting time to have chili. So next time you eat something 00:06:42.220 --> 00:06:46.880 with green chili, because it's available, geez, a lot of places now. 00:06:47.742 --> 00:06:51.802 You know that they were roasted and peeled, and the chili is the meat of the 00:06:51.802 --> 00:06:57.222 chili, and that's what they make the sauce, the gravy, as it were, 00:06:57.462 --> 00:06:58.922 out of the meat of the chili. 00:06:59.042 --> 00:07:02.322 So now you know kind of the backstory, and that's what's going on here.

00:07:02.362 --> 00:07:10.782 As for me, geez, it's been pretty interesting, lots of crazy events and meetings 00:07:10.782 --> 00:07:12.322 and getting to talk to people, 00:07:12.502 --> 00:07:17.602 and that's always super exciting because this is the time of year where people get together. 00:07:17.842 --> 00:07:21.262 And I do appreciate the ability for us to get together. 00:07:21.522 --> 00:07:28.202 I think the pandemic kind of made us realize how significant these meetings are. 00:07:28.622 --> 00:07:31.382 I think I used to kind of take them for granted or worse yet, 00:07:31.462 --> 00:07:35.822 kind of dread them a little.

And now I see them as an opportunity to network and reconnect. 00:07:36.402 --> 00:07:40.842 So that's always fun. It's a good time. So that's pretty much the story here.

00:07:41.042 --> 00:07:43.202 How about you? Anything exciting going on? 00:07:44.122 --> 00:07:48.322 It's such an interesting time to be around just because, well, 00:07:48.402 --> 00:07:54.462 as you heard in that interview last week, the safety and reliability world, the world we live in, 00:07:54.762 --> 00:08:00.562 is definitely a world in the midst of change, and that change is starting to 00:08:00.562 --> 00:08:01.482 really have some impact. 00:08:01.722 --> 00:08:06.382 I mean, once the regulator starts talking about the change, 00:08:06.382 --> 00:08:13.062 That's a relatively significant indicator that this way of thinking has has 00:08:13.062 --> 00:08:19.982 found a way in to our organizations really throughout the globe in our case.

00:08:20.322 --> 00:08:26.582 And so this new discussion of, for instance, redefining safety as a as a capacity 00:08:26.582 --> 00:08:31.842 or thinking of safety, not as a program, but as a practice, you know, 00:08:31.922 --> 00:08:34.162 the difference between safety and safely. 00:08:34.162 --> 00:08:36.302 We've talked about this for years. 00:08:36.602 --> 00:08:39.102 Now that's kind of mainstream conversation. 00:08:40.062 --> 00:08:45.642 And what's amazing to me, and I'm desperately kind of searching for where this 00:08:45.642 --> 00:08:50.522 is all coming from, is the stories people are telling are quite successful.

00:08:50.522 --> 00:08:54.162 So you're hearing really interesting industry-wide stories of, 00:08:54.322 --> 00:08:56.562 for instance, reduction in fatality numbers. 00:08:56.662 --> 00:09:03.422 And that's always super encouraging. And we should really celebrate when that happens. 00:09:04.370 --> 00:09:08.770 Even the discussion about that, I think, makes a big difference because I've 00:09:08.770 --> 00:09:15.130 always said one of the challenges we have in our world is that we're not a hard science, 00:09:15.130 --> 00:09:21.610 so it's going to be hard to measure us like you'd measure mathematics or the 00:09:21.610 --> 00:09:23.730 temperature, a physics event.

00:09:23.730 --> 00:09:29.730 And because we're not a hard science, it's a lot of it is really it's really 00:09:29.730 --> 00:09:34.310 incumbent upon basically built upon confidence, 00:09:34.810 --> 00:09:39.610 the belief we can become better and the belief we can make improvement and then 00:09:39.610 --> 00:09:41.630 the capacity to actually do so. 00:09:41.630 --> 00:09:47.190 The resources, time, energy, effort, the ideas, the way people think, 00:09:47.390 --> 00:09:49.330 the paradigm, all of those things 00:09:49.330 --> 00:09:54.070 create what really creates the safest organizations we have in the world. 00:09:54.190 --> 00:09:58.090 And you know that because if you look at your organization, and that's always 00:09:58.090 --> 00:10:03.470 a good thing to do, understand that the safest part of your organization and 00:10:03.470 --> 00:10:08.190 the least safe part of your organization still coexist within your organization. 00:10:08.190 --> 00:10:12.770 So the difference isn't the organization.

the difference has to look at sort 00:10:12.770 --> 00:10:16.790 of the culture and environment that's created to make that safety happen. 00:10:16.970 --> 00:10:24.690 And that's kind of what we should be talking about today, because that is directly 00:10:24.690 --> 00:10:26.570 tied to that opening quote. 00:10:30.430 --> 00:10:33.930 So you heard me say it, good gets better and bad gets worse. 00:10:34.450 --> 00:10:38.630 So let's talk about that a minute, because I think that's a pretty important 00:10:38.630 --> 00:10:41.230 thing for us to anchor on.

00:10:41.390 --> 00:10:43.810 I think it's important enough to make a podcast about. 00:10:43.990 --> 00:10:47.190 And, you know, I never don't have stuff to talk about. 00:10:47.330 --> 00:10:51.690 There's always a list of topics and ideas to share with you. 00:10:51.810 --> 00:10:57.650 So it's not like that I'm desperately searching for stuff.

There's always stuff on the list. 00:10:57.950 --> 00:11:02.670 But I pushed this one a little farther ahead just because I've been thinking 00:11:02.670 --> 00:11:09.290 about this a lot. And this idea that good gets better and bad gets worse probably 00:11:09.290 --> 00:11:11.810 demands some further discussion. 00:11:11.930 --> 00:11:18.770 But I think it's a really important place to start when you think about your 00:11:18.770 --> 00:11:24.370 job within your organizations and how you're helping the organization improve.

00:11:25.345 --> 00:11:29.645 Because the bottom line is, without intervention, without doing anything, 00:11:29.645 --> 00:11:34.905 if you look at an organization that's doing well, chances are, 00:11:35.025 --> 00:11:36.345 if you wanted to predict the future, 00:11:37.065 --> 00:11:41.105 organizations that are doing good will get better at doing good. 00:11:41.745 --> 00:11:46.745 And organizations that are not doing good, without any kind of intervention, 00:11:47.025 --> 00:11:50.545 without any kind of interruption, without going in and doing something to that 00:11:50.545 --> 00:11:55.005 group, an organization that's not doing well will get worse. 00:11:55.345 --> 00:11:59.385 And so even though the future is an incredibly difficult thing to predict, 00:11:59.585 --> 00:12:02.025 and it is an incredibly difficult thing to predict, 00:12:02.385 --> 00:12:07.805 one of the things we know for certain is the organization that you arrive in 00:12:07.805 --> 00:12:11.345 will help you understand what to do next. 00:12:11.345 --> 00:12:18.305 So if you go to a team or a group or a site or an area and they're doing well, 00:12:18.585 --> 00:12:22.985 we know that if we do nothing, they will, in fact, get better.

00:12:23.945 --> 00:12:28.125 If you go to an organization or a site or an area in your company that's doing 00:12:28.125 --> 00:12:32.745 poorly, you know if you do nothing, they will not get better. They'll get worse. 00:12:33.185 --> 00:12:37.645 And so that's pretty helpful because it sort of helps you understand where to 00:12:37.645 --> 00:12:39.165 put your time, effort, and resources. 00:12:39.165 --> 00:12:43.985 Because when you're jumping in to help an organization improve, 00:12:44.005 --> 00:12:46.985 when you're helping an organization change.

00:12:47.485 --> 00:12:50.645 When you're helping an organization develop a better culture, 00:12:50.785 --> 00:12:53.505 these are all words, when you're helping introduce, for instance, 00:12:53.705 --> 00:12:57.545 psychological safety, or pick any other word you want to put there, 00:12:57.985 --> 00:13:04.005 into an organization, one of the things that's really important is to know where you need to begin. 00:13:04.005 --> 00:13:09.465 And so you have to start not where you want to be. 00:13:09.905 --> 00:13:18.065 You have to start where they are. And sometimes that is really difficult to communicate.

00:13:18.505 --> 00:13:22.765 And I understand. I mean, I completely get the fact that the notion that you 00:13:22.765 --> 00:13:27.225 want to start where you are, that's more interesting and more exciting and you'll 00:13:27.225 --> 00:13:31.765 save a ton of time and you won't have to have the same conversations nine million times. 00:13:31.765 --> 00:13:33.865 And you can just begin and blossom. 00:13:34.185 --> 00:13:37.765 The problem is, is you really have to start where the group is.

00:13:38.185 --> 00:13:44.305 And that's where that idea that good gets better and bad gets worse is a really 00:13:44.305 --> 00:13:45.765 important piece of information. 00:13:46.205 --> 00:13:49.505 Because if the group is on a trajectory for improvement, 00:13:49.885 --> 00:13:55.845 then what you want to do is ensure by sort of understanding conditions necessary 00:13:55.845 --> 00:14:00.965 to increase that improvement, to continue what they're doing, to not intervene, 00:14:01.285 --> 00:14:06.785 to not interrupt, but to actually help facilitate success, that's where you 00:14:06.785 --> 00:14:07.865 manage those conditions. 00:14:08.365 --> 00:14:14.645 But if the group is doing poorly, and poorly is part of what groups become, I mean, pretty normal. 00:14:14.925 --> 00:14:17.305 If the group is in a bad shape.

00:14:18.099 --> 00:14:24.879 Then you have to intervene and you have to actually create a change to break 00:14:24.879 --> 00:14:29.099 that cycle because it's going to go from bad to worse. 00:14:29.619 --> 00:14:32.919 Good gets better, bad gets worse. 00:14:33.219 --> 00:14:39.999 And so that's where the ideas come in of helping a group go to what's often 00:14:39.999 --> 00:14:43.039 called a more restorative approach. 00:14:43.559 --> 00:14:46.399 So one of the things that I think about, because unfortunately, 00:14:46.419 --> 00:14:50.999 I get to talk to groups all the time and work with organizations that have had 00:14:50.999 --> 00:14:57.199 something really bad happen, like a terrible fatality, like a decapitation or something just awful, 00:14:57.439 --> 00:15:03.599 is that that we know if we don't do something differently, 00:15:04.019 --> 00:15:07.459 that group is going to go from this bad place to a worse place.

00:15:07.459 --> 00:15:10.219 And the reason they're going to go to a worse place is because, 00:15:10.659 --> 00:15:12.519 well, a horrible thing has happened. 00:15:12.799 --> 00:15:14.839 And so lots of people are hurt. 00:15:15.199 --> 00:15:21.379 And there's an erosion in confidence. They don't believe they can do high-risk work safely.

00:15:21.379 --> 00:15:26.439 And because there's an erosion in confidence, then there's a dramatic amount 00:15:26.439 --> 00:15:30.599 of other ancillary impacts that are happening to that organization. 00:15:31.359 --> 00:15:36.239 They lose the ability to make decisions or they become incredibly aggressive 00:15:36.239 --> 00:15:41.319 or they direct people with very, very specific, 00:15:41.659 --> 00:15:46.399 non-adaptive, very linear, follow this rule exactly, no variance. 00:15:46.399 --> 00:15:50.279 If you vary it anyway, you're gone. And those kind of things, 00:15:50.539 --> 00:15:54.699 those are significant and those have to be interrupted.

00:15:55.665 --> 00:15:59.785 Because if you go from bad, you get to worse. And I think about this when I 00:15:59.785 --> 00:16:04.465 think about organizations that'll have a bad thing happen, and they'll immediately 00:16:04.465 --> 00:16:09.665 go back to rigid compliance to rules and rigid enforcement of those rules. 00:16:09.945 --> 00:16:13.365 And I understand that the leadership of that team believes they're doing it 00:16:13.365 --> 00:16:16.265 because it's going to make it better. But in fact, it doesn't make it better.

00:16:16.565 --> 00:16:20.205 We know it doesn't make it better. The evidence shows us it doesn't make it better. 00:16:20.205 --> 00:16:25.325 When something bad has happened, it's really important to figure out where people 00:16:25.325 --> 00:16:30.705 are, what they need, and who's going to actually help them have a different 00:16:30.705 --> 00:16:34.765 environment, an environment where they can be more successful at doing high-risk work. 00:16:35.565 --> 00:16:41.325 That's a gigantic shift in thinking.

And it comes from this idea that good gets 00:16:41.325 --> 00:16:43.485 better and bad gets worse. 00:16:43.905 --> 00:16:49.865 And the funny thing is, I know that sounds really simple, and it's definitely a platitude. 00:16:49.865 --> 00:16:55.945 It's something you say, and yet it's a platitude that's built around lots and 00:16:55.945 --> 00:16:59.745 lots of years of practical observation. 00:17:00.585 --> 00:17:05.625 I mean, the thing we know about stereotypes is they save a lot of time.

00:17:07.625 --> 00:17:12.465 I'm not sure they're good. Don't get me wrong. But there's some observable things 00:17:12.465 --> 00:17:13.565 that make a huge difference. 00:17:14.125 --> 00:17:18.665 And when you realize that's the case, then that allows you the opportunity to 00:17:18.665 --> 00:17:21.205 go in and what you manage then are the conditions, 00:17:21.565 --> 00:17:26.565 the sort of enabling conditions, the things the group needs environmentally, 00:17:26.885 --> 00:17:30.925 the things the group needs organizationally, the thing the group needs culturally 00:17:30.925 --> 00:17:34.825 to actually get better.

And that's what you manage. 00:17:35.285 --> 00:17:38.065 And that's a big part of that discussion. 00:17:38.985 --> 00:17:41.905 Think about that because I think it's definitely worth your time. 00:17:42.800 --> 00:17:50.800 Music.

00:17:50.642 --> 00:17:55.042 So that discussion is just a simple discussion, but it's one that's been on my mind a bunch. 00:17:55.182 --> 00:17:59.702 And it's probably been on my mind just because there's a bunch of stuff that's been going on. 00:17:59.962 --> 00:18:06.502 I mean, not necessarily for me, but a bunch of stuff that's been going on within our world. 00:18:06.922 --> 00:18:08.642 And it makes me think, what do 00:18:08.642 --> 00:18:13.122 I need to be thinking?

What do I need to be doing? The world's uncertain. 00:18:14.122 --> 00:18:18.982 People are getting really aggressive and cranky. There's weird questions about 00:18:18.982 --> 00:18:21.642 ownership and pride is hurt.

00:18:22.102 --> 00:18:25.382 There's all sorts of crazy stuff happening out there. You know, 00:18:25.502 --> 00:18:27.742 people hate each other. Cultures hate each other. 00:18:28.862 --> 00:18:32.802 There's just crazy things happening out there.

What do we do with it? 00:18:32.902 --> 00:18:34.602 And how does it impact our organization? 00:18:34.822 --> 00:18:37.382 Well, the answer is it does impact our organization. 00:18:37.922 --> 00:18:41.462 This kind of uncertainty is a huge part of what happens.

And we know that. 00:18:41.562 --> 00:18:46.202 We've learned that in the last five years for sure. The idea that we can help 00:18:46.202 --> 00:18:53.362 by creating the conditions necessary for our groups to not only succeed but to thrive, to improve, 00:18:53.422 --> 00:18:59.122 is a vital part of how we think about and move forward with these ideas. 00:18:59.342 --> 00:19:01.262 And I think it makes a huge difference.

00:19:01.722 --> 00:19:06.742 It's definitely something to think about, especially on the back of a discussion 00:19:06.742 --> 00:19:11.722 with the administrator of the Occupational Safety Administration for the United States. 00:19:12.462 --> 00:19:16.942 All of these things are super connected. And I think that's a pretty cool thing indeed. 00:19:17.622 --> 00:19:20.942 So that's the pod today.

It's short and sweet. I told you I owed you some short 00:19:20.942 --> 00:19:22.582 ones, and this was going to be one of those. 00:19:23.022 --> 00:19:25.802 I want you to learn something new every single day. I hope you did today.

00:19:25.942 --> 00:19:29.602 Have as much fun as you possibly can. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other. 00:19:29.902 --> 00:19:33.322 Check in on one another.

And for goodness sakes, you guys, be safe. 00:19:34.000 --> 00:19:45.324 Music.