PAPod 524 - Unlocking Organizational Effectiveness with Edgar Schein

WEBVTT 00:00:00.017 --> 00:00:03.537 Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Free Accident Podcast. I'm Todd Conklin. How are you?

00:00:03.957 --> 00:00:09.077 So before I even roll out the opening credit stuff, today is a big day. 00:00:09.197 --> 00:00:13.077 Actually, it's part one of a two-part big day. 00:00:13.377 --> 00:00:17.537 Does that make sense? Probably.

Enough. You know, enough. You'll be fine. 00:00:18.057 --> 00:00:24.677 I got to spend an entire day with Edgar Schein, and actually his son Peter was with him as well.

00:00:25.077 --> 00:00:33.257 And he was completely cool and kind of excited about us recording it for the 00:00:33.257 --> 00:00:34.617 podcast so you could hear as well. 00:00:34.817 --> 00:00:39.057 So that's what today's podcast is. Part one of a two-parter. 00:00:39.317 --> 00:00:45.057 Get ready because I think your socks are about to be blown off your legs.

How's it going? 00:00:45.040 --> 00:00:57.520 Music. 00:00:56.197 --> 00:00:59.897 Hi everybody todd conklin pre-accident podcast pre-investigate 00:00:59.897 --> 00:01:02.917 what is this called what are we you'd think after 500 of 00:01:02.917 --> 00:01:06.077 these you'd know what to call pre-accident investigation podcast that's 00:01:06.077 --> 00:01:09.017 it yeah i can't do 00:01:09.017 --> 00:01:16.197 it i cannot do it so you're about to enjoy the fabulous twinings of edgar shine 00:01:16.197 --> 00:01:21.937 fine get ready pumpkins it's good it's really good it's it's just such a treat 00:01:21.937 --> 00:01:26.877 to be to be with him and to hear him talk i one of my favorites i think i've 00:01:26.877 --> 00:01:28.397 talked about this before in the podcast one, 00:01:28.937 --> 00:01:35.177 of my very favorite things to do is be with these these academics as they enter 00:01:35.177 --> 00:01:40.677 the twilight of their careers and is that a nice way to say that yeah that's probably the best way. 00:01:42.117 --> 00:01:45.877 Because they've boiled away so much of the academic crap.

00:01:46.297 --> 00:01:50.057 So I don't know if you know, do you know the old joke about universities? 00:01:51.127 --> 00:01:52.927 People are so mean to each other 00:01:52.927 --> 00:01:57.687 in universities because the stakes are so low. That's the joke, right? 00:01:58.227 --> 00:02:01.807 The funny thing about academics is they're constantly sort of, 00:02:02.027 --> 00:02:07.287 the system is sort of incentivized to make everybody kind of an enemy.

00:02:07.627 --> 00:02:12.947 And what I love, and I got to see this with Edward T. Hall and just a whole 00:02:12.947 --> 00:02:15.447 bunch of incredible scholars. 00:02:15.847 --> 00:02:22.267 Ev Rogers was just a joy. is towards the end of their academic arc, 00:02:22.587 --> 00:02:26.887 I'm trying to think of gentle ways to say this, as they enter the next phase 00:02:26.887 --> 00:02:29.047 of their career and life, 00:02:29.347 --> 00:02:36.767 their thinking becomes so much more clear because they've sort of spent their 00:02:36.767 --> 00:02:41.727 entire career boiling their ideas down to these really quite remarkable statements.

00:02:41.947 --> 00:02:46.707 Like Edward T. Hall said, if you want to understand another culture, make a friend. 00:02:46.987 --> 00:02:50.747 I mean, that's an amazing, if you think about that, my life's work ended up 00:02:50.747 --> 00:02:53.587 on that phrase. That's a pretty cool phrase to end with.

00:02:54.267 --> 00:03:00.887 Ev Rogers was completely convinced at every level that communicating with one 00:03:00.887 --> 00:03:06.747 another was part of a larger system that involved really the whole person. 00:03:07.087 --> 00:03:12.047 And so we didn't communicate just in language, but we communicated in this entire package. 00:03:12.927 --> 00:03:17.327 And Edgar Schein has really boiled his thinking around organizations, 00:03:17.547 --> 00:03:19.267 culture, and safety to a great extent. 00:03:20.159 --> 00:03:23.839 Two words.

I'm not going to tell you what those two words are because you'll 00:03:23.839 --> 00:03:27.979 get to hear them. I mean, I could tell them. I know them, but I'm not going to blab them out now. 00:03:28.179 --> 00:03:32.419 I don't want to say spoiler alert the two words are.

That'd be cheesy. 00:03:32.959 --> 00:03:38.479 I just want to sit back and let you hear this conversation. 00:03:39.159 --> 00:03:43.299 Now, we're together with the folks at Chevron, and it was so sweet of them to 00:03:43.299 --> 00:03:44.639 invite a bunch of us to come see this. 00:03:44.639 --> 00:03:47.739 And we were talking about fatalities and serious injuries, which, 00:03:47.859 --> 00:03:52.559 you know, is a topic we probably need to spend a lot more time specifically 00:03:52.559 --> 00:03:58.479 throwing away the classic industrial safety conversation, the injuries and industrial harm things.

00:03:58.479 --> 00:04:02.139 They're important, but talking specifically about fatalities. 00:04:02.679 --> 00:04:07.479 And Shahika Korkmaz, who's a dear friend of mine, invited Edgar Schein. 00:04:07.619 --> 00:04:12.319 And Peter, his son, came with him. They traveled together.

and he spent, 00:04:12.919 --> 00:04:17.139 gosh, a good hour and a half. You'll see, because it's the reason it's two podcasts. 00:04:17.459 --> 00:04:25.039 Just kind of talking about safety and how the world works and what in fact is going on. 00:04:25.299 --> 00:04:28.659 And I think you're going to find this conversation to be really interesting.

00:04:28.939 --> 00:04:33.139 It's fun. It's really good. I think the very best thing I can do is not feed 00:04:33.139 --> 00:04:37.199 you more information about my exciting summer, even though it's dwindling, 00:04:37.399 --> 00:04:41.979 almost it's over. I mean, we're into bluegrass time right now.

00:04:42.159 --> 00:04:46.599 I think the best thing I can do is sit back and relax and listen with you. 00:04:46.859 --> 00:04:48.999 And you'll hear Edgar Schein. 00:04:49.299 --> 00:04:50.739 And Peter's going to jump in 00:04:50.739 --> 00:04:55.339 once in a while talking about safety and fatalities and serious incidents. 00:04:55.599 --> 00:05:01.399 So here it is, the Pre-Accident Podcast gladly welcomes Edgar Schein another 00:05:01.399 --> 00:05:03.579 time.

Sit back, relax, and enjoy. 00:05:05.919 --> 00:05:10.379 But it's a good lead-in to what what we want to discuss with you today, 00:05:11.886 --> 00:05:16.826 Instead of, you know, giving you a detailed analysis of how to think about culture, 00:05:17.086 --> 00:05:21.766 I really want to think about safety and improvement and effectiveness. 00:05:22.726 --> 00:05:30.306 My interest in this goes way back to the earliest organization development work, 00:05:30.306 --> 00:05:37.466 as some of you may or may not remember, was done in the oil industry. Exxon and SOChem.

00:05:37.646 --> 00:05:46.046 And those companies did a lot of, they put a lot of resources into their own improvement projects. 00:05:46.326 --> 00:05:52.486 They funded a lot of the management T groups that were operating in those days. 00:05:52.846 --> 00:05:57.326 Is Blake Mouton a name that still rings anywhere? 00:05:57.706 --> 00:06:04.466 They had a whole program that the oil companies were using for self-development.

00:06:04.686 --> 00:06:09.686 So it's interesting that that is not a common name anymore to you because at 00:06:09.686 --> 00:06:12.266 one time it was the thing to do, 00:06:13.066 --> 00:06:20.946 a self-administering one-week workshop that would work its way through all the layers of the company. 00:06:21.446 --> 00:06:24.506 And so anyway, it started there. 00:06:24.746 --> 00:06:29.446 And then as I started to be a consultant with Digital Equipment Corporation, 00:06:29.466 --> 00:06:34.506 they didn't really have a safety problem, but they have had effectiveness problems. 00:06:34.746 --> 00:06:41.686 And at the same time with Sibagygi, at that time, a big chemical conglomerate 00:06:41.686 --> 00:06:46.446 that then became pharmaceutical and is today Novartis.

00:06:47.266 --> 00:06:52.226 They clearly had safety issues, particularly with drugs. 00:06:52.626 --> 00:06:59.746 They produced the drug that produced all these unfortunate birth problems. 00:06:59.946 --> 00:07:04.566 So that's a very extreme form of a safety issue when you have a product. 00:07:05.504 --> 00:07:09.784 Produces something very undesirable and unwarranted.

00:07:10.404 --> 00:07:17.324 And then I got involved with Con Edison as a consultant for over 15 years. 00:07:17.504 --> 00:07:22.604 And that's where I've learned the most. Because when you look at a program like 00:07:22.604 --> 00:07:26.884 this as an outsider and don't look at a cross-section, okay, 00:07:27.024 --> 00:07:30.464 what are they doing right now? What is the current program?

00:07:30.804 --> 00:07:40.324 If you look at this across 15 years, you see all kinds of nuances that the cross-sectional 00:07:40.324 --> 00:07:41.964 analysis doesn't get you. 00:07:42.104 --> 00:07:44.284 So that got me very interested. 00:07:44.544 --> 00:07:50.084 And then I got involved around the culture issue with the nuclear industry, 00:07:50.364 --> 00:07:59.104 both in giving talks to the people in Vienna and then becoming a member of the advisory board of INPO. 00:07:59.244 --> 00:08:01.184 How many of you know about INPO?

00:08:01.584 --> 00:08:08.384 It should probably be most of you. It's a very ingenious device for an industry 00:08:08.384 --> 00:08:12.964 to create its own internal development organization, 00:08:12.964 --> 00:08:19.704 both to measure how we're doing and to provide teams that not only measure but 00:08:19.704 --> 00:08:22.464 then help to improve the organization. 00:08:22.864 --> 00:08:28.144 So for five or more years, I heard the stories of what was going on there. 00:08:28.504 --> 00:08:35.264 And they all lead to, I have about six points and then some handouts.

The first main point. 00:08:35.544 --> 00:08:38.704 It's a very simple point, and I suspect, 00:08:39.064 --> 00:08:48.504 I hope I'm preaching to the choir that the common element in all these safety 00:08:48.504 --> 00:08:58.024 and effectiveness programs is that they are all driven by the same two fundamental ideas. 00:08:58.464 --> 00:09:00.264 Openness and trust. 00:09:00.564 --> 00:09:07.404 If you look at all the safety culture lists, you'll always find openness and 00:09:07.404 --> 00:09:09.184 trust somewhere on that list.

00:09:09.624 --> 00:09:13.764 And what from our point of view, if you look at this culturally, 00:09:14.244 --> 00:09:21.484 they are not only the most important ones, but in a certain sense, they are the only ones. 00:09:21.824 --> 00:09:28.244 Because all the other things you do don't really work very well if you don't 00:09:28.244 --> 00:09:32.344 have people that are open with each other and that trust each other. 00:09:32.644 --> 00:09:37.564 So the thing I am most concerned about is that. 00:09:38.479 --> 00:09:41.899 We get down into the trees 00:09:41.899 --> 00:09:50.299 and redesign the trees and the gardens and fertilizers and burn-offs and don't 00:09:50.299 --> 00:09:56.439 look at the forest and realize that the forest only works because of the synergy 00:09:56.439 --> 00:10:00.979 between openness and trust and how people relate to each other.

00:10:01.199 --> 00:10:05.359 Is that okay so far? Can you agree with me on that. 00:10:05.639 --> 00:10:11.159 So the first thing we have to solve is the trust and the openness problem. 00:10:12.059 --> 00:10:18.759 So all the programs I saw in Con Ed, and every few years they had a new program, 00:10:18.979 --> 00:10:23.519 and the safety people said, if you don't have a new program, you lose motivation.

00:10:23.819 --> 00:10:27.799 And you get, That is, some of you have seen that. 00:10:28.219 --> 00:10:35.359 And what is lost in that is why do we need a new program every few years? 00:10:35.559 --> 00:10:37.099 Because there's something missing. 00:10:37.519 --> 00:10:44.099 There's some underlying thing having to do with openness and trust that hasn't 00:10:44.099 --> 00:10:49.139 gotten embedded in the culture, or else we wouldn't need a new program.

00:10:50.039 --> 00:10:56.939 So point one is that safety and effectiveness are fundamentally the same. 00:10:57.259 --> 00:11:02.319 And point two is they all hinge openness and trust. 00:11:02.659 --> 00:11:09.519 So the Stanford right now, we're working with the hospital and the medical school 00:11:09.519 --> 00:11:13.979 on a variety of lean programs and improvement programs. 00:11:14.879 --> 00:11:21.519 Safety isn't right now the big issue.

But what are all the improvement programs 00:11:21.519 --> 00:11:23.519 about and the quality programs? 00:11:23.759 --> 00:11:26.919 They're about trust and openness. 00:11:27.938 --> 00:11:35.318 So this convergence of effectiveness and safety is very important to get into your head. 00:11:35.738 --> 00:11:40.458 You're not working safety.

You're working total organizational effectiveness. 00:11:40.878 --> 00:11:47.158 Can you live with that? Yes. Is it taken for granted or do I have to sell it to you?

00:11:49.078 --> 00:11:52.018 I'm in. We're with you. 00:11:53.538 --> 00:11:56.578 But i i mean it is worth noting that 00:11:56.578 --> 00:11:59.718 the world doesn't necessarily 00:11:59.718 --> 00:12:02.598 see it that way you might have to prove to them 00:12:02.598 --> 00:12:05.578 that this is the right way for the organization to think about it 00:12:05.578 --> 00:12:09.918 but the world is still going to have all sorts of regulatory bodies that are 00:12:09.918 --> 00:12:17.558 only focused on on you know fatalities and accidents but ed's point as as organizations 00:12:17.558 --> 00:12:23.878 what are the benefits of thinking of them as linked, as synergistic. 00:12:24.438 --> 00:12:33.798 All right.

So now the question that the previous speaker of everyone asking you, 00:12:33.918 --> 00:12:37.758 what do you want me to do and how will I know how I'm doing are really fabulous 00:12:37.758 --> 00:12:40.058 questions for this very point. 00:12:40.318 --> 00:12:48.478 So the answer from our point of view is a high level of trust and openness is 00:12:48.478 --> 00:12:50.118 what I want you to achieve. 00:12:50.638 --> 00:12:57.398 And what I want you to do to get there is to develop a different relationship 00:12:57.398 --> 00:13:03.258 with your teammates, your boss, and your direct reports. 00:13:03.778 --> 00:13:15.098 All your human contacts have to go from something that in our books we introduce as level one, two, 00:13:15.318 --> 00:13:21.638 or three kind of relationship, where I guess we'll give you this first handout 00:13:21.638 --> 00:13:25.198 to explain what we mean by a level two relationship, 00:13:25.658 --> 00:13:32.418 that you can't have trust and openness if you don't have the right kind of human 00:13:32.418 --> 00:13:37.258 relationship, particularly with your direct reports.

00:13:38.282 --> 00:13:43.022 The most common situation that I encountered in Con Edison, 00:13:43.282 --> 00:13:50.082 I was part of a group, two environmental lawyers and me that were assigned to 00:13:50.082 --> 00:13:55.182 work for the board on improving environmental health and safety. 00:13:55.582 --> 00:14:01.362 But one of the things we did was we ran a lot of focus groups of electrical workers. 00:14:02.342 --> 00:14:08.802 And this was in the midst of Con Edison having, they were under indictment, 00:14:09.002 --> 00:14:13.042 they were on probation, so they had to work on this stuff. 00:14:13.282 --> 00:14:19.522 They were working very hard on it.

And so we would have a focus group and we would say, well, 00:14:19.722 --> 00:14:25.802 you have this timeout program, and so if an electrical worker is down there 00:14:25.802 --> 00:14:33.662 under the sidewalk and sees a problem and it's unsafe, you're supposed to call a timeout. Sure. 00:14:34.122 --> 00:14:39.062 Does it work? Well, most of the time it works, but there are some problems.

00:14:39.162 --> 00:14:40.062 Well, what's the problem? 00:14:40.242 --> 00:14:46.782 Well, one of the problems is I tried telling my boss about this wiring didn't 00:14:46.782 --> 00:14:52.582 look very safe, and I could tell that he was being polite, but he wasn't really listening. 00:14:53.342 --> 00:14:58.342 Something in that immediate relationship wasn't working. 00:14:58.662 --> 00:15:05.682 The boss wasn't listening.

Or he got annoyed with me because we were having too many timeouts. 00:15:05.942 --> 00:15:10.562 And his unit doesn't want to have more timeouts than the other units because 00:15:10.562 --> 00:15:12.862 they're measuring the hell out of the timeouts. 00:15:13.242 --> 00:15:18.462 So the measurement system under the transparency logic, which we're going to 00:15:18.462 --> 00:15:21.262 keep hammering is not the same as openness. 00:15:21.262 --> 00:15:28.922 Under the transparency logic, that supervisor is disadvantaged by knowing that 00:15:28.922 --> 00:15:35.202 he's got more timeouts than some other groups, and he kind of leaks that.

00:15:36.130 --> 00:15:40.610 To the employee, to the point where the employee says, well, 00:15:40.850 --> 00:15:47.310 this doesn't look quite safe to me, but I'm not sure I ought to call yet another timeout. 00:15:47.490 --> 00:15:49.210 You might get mad at me. 00:15:49.550 --> 00:15:57.310 So openness gets undermined in the most subtle way, even in the midst of a program. 00:15:57.930 --> 00:16:08.630 Or maybe what the what the worker saw is a deeper problem, a fellow worker doing something unsafe.

00:16:09.170 --> 00:16:13.110 And it's clear that the rules are you should report that. 00:16:13.470 --> 00:16:17.250 And in the focus groups, they would tell us, no way. 00:16:17.470 --> 00:16:22.870 You know, we're unionized. There is no way I'm going to report on a buddy.

00:16:23.670 --> 00:16:28.890 Just forget about it. That's not in the cards. Ain't going to happen. 00:16:29.790 --> 00:16:36.910 So again, what's the relationship between those two employees that would make 00:16:36.910 --> 00:16:44.950 them tolerate unsafe behavior because of another norm that's operating there?

00:16:45.090 --> 00:16:49.490 You never rat on a buddy. It's a very deep sort of a norm. 00:16:50.470 --> 00:16:58.830 So we've got to find a way to redefine the daily relationship between every 00:16:58.830 --> 00:17:04.510 boss and every direct report and every team member and the other team members. 00:17:05.490 --> 00:17:11.310 And the way we're doing that conceptually is to say the history of management 00:17:11.310 --> 00:17:19.390 has been way too focused on roles and role distance, 00:17:19.730 --> 00:17:21.850 that everyone has their job.

00:17:22.050 --> 00:17:26.110 They know what the job is. It's well described in the job description. 00:17:26.770 --> 00:17:30.310 And I'm your boss. My job is to supervise you.

00:17:30.830 --> 00:17:34.890 And I don't really want to get to know you. That might be uncomfortable. 00:17:35.610 --> 00:17:41.990 And yet getting to know you might be the only way to openness and trust. 00:17:42.950 --> 00:17:47.830 That's the big message.

And it's a very difficult message because I think we're 00:17:47.830 --> 00:17:50.610 fighting all of management history. 00:17:51.110 --> 00:17:57.890 Management history is wedded to the idea of roles, role relations. 00:17:57.890 --> 00:18:00.370 You know your job. I know my job.

00:18:00.690 --> 00:18:05.650 Let's not get too personal here because then it might lead to nepotism. 00:18:05.650 --> 00:18:08.270 It might lead to other bad things. 00:18:08.650 --> 00:18:16.990 So what we're trying to describe in that handout is how level two differs from, 00:18:17.442 --> 00:18:23.042 from both a really negative relationship, what we call minus one, 00:18:23.242 --> 00:18:27.502 or the traditional role-based management 00:18:27.502 --> 00:18:30.622 relationship that I think most companies just 00:18:30.622 --> 00:18:38.042 buy into willy-nilly and not saying we want you to be intimate and saying there 00:18:38.042 --> 00:18:44.662 is a level of knowing who you're working with relevant to the job that you're 00:18:44.662 --> 00:18:50.542 doing that you have to achieve if safety, effectiveness. 00:18:51.122 --> 00:18:54.042 Openness, trust are your goal.

00:18:54.462 --> 00:18:58.282 And the reason for that is the work has gotten too complicated. 00:18:58.682 --> 00:19:02.002 You can't define roles so neatly anymore. 00:19:02.362 --> 00:19:05.262 Back in the assembly line day, you could do that. 00:19:05.442 --> 00:19:10.182 But when you look at what, like General McChrystal's team of teams, 00:19:10.402 --> 00:19:13.262 when he says, you know, when you're fighting that war in Afghanistan, 00:19:13.282 --> 00:19:17.482 you don't even know what the right roles are until you're out there.

00:19:17.882 --> 00:19:23.962 Or another better example even is we've done a lot of work with forestry department. 00:19:24.422 --> 00:19:30.022 When you're out there fighting these fires, the roles are constantly shifting. 00:19:30.442 --> 00:19:38.002 The work is constantly shifting. So what you really need to know is what's your buddy doing right now?

00:19:38.262 --> 00:19:45.242 And if the buddy is also my boss and we don't have a level two relationship, 00:19:45.242 --> 00:19:48.322 I don't know whether I can trust him. 00:19:48.642 --> 00:19:54.082 And he or she doesn't know whether they can tell me what's really going on. 00:19:54.522 --> 00:20:02.642 So we're pushing this concept. And it's a tricky one because it's so against management norms.

00:20:03.362 --> 00:20:08.142 Psychological distance is a good thing. You don't want to fraternize. 00:20:08.262 --> 00:20:12.722 You don't want to have to hurt your buddy and rat on him. 00:20:13.002 --> 00:20:23.122 And yet, the world is going into a set of tasks and structures and work situations that, 00:20:23.681 --> 00:20:30.221 where the roles are shifting and unclear, and even hierarchy is beginning to 00:20:30.221 --> 00:20:33.021 be unclear, how to manage hierarchy.

00:20:33.441 --> 00:20:39.541 So if we're heading into that world, I think we have a solid argument that you've 00:20:39.541 --> 00:20:46.421 got to somehow get to know your people at a deeper level than what is currently 00:20:46.421 --> 00:20:50.081 the normal management process. 00:20:50.521 --> 00:20:52.141 How do you react to that? 00:20:52.801 --> 00:20:55.861 Dr. Strong, you said transparency is not the same as openness.

00:20:56.781 --> 00:21:01.441 So in this situation, I think I'm going to use those words interchangeably, 00:21:01.561 --> 00:21:02.461 but they're not at a stake. 00:21:03.621 --> 00:21:10.361 Transparency is usually a management-directed set of numbers that we all should look at. 00:21:10.501 --> 00:21:16.101 We should make it clear what work we're doing and how we're measuring it. 00:21:16.101 --> 00:21:20.781 We're not going to hide the ball, right?

We're going to share every metric. 00:21:21.381 --> 00:21:29.001 We might even share all of the performance measures of every single employee 00:21:29.001 --> 00:21:30.761 because we're completely transparent. 00:21:31.121 --> 00:21:35.921 But that's as much of a weapon as it is. It doesn't need necessarily create openness.

00:21:36.121 --> 00:21:41.661 No, I think that sort of weaponizes information, you know, 00:21:41.881 --> 00:21:50.501 because you end up with all of these sort of pathologies when you believe that 00:21:50.501 --> 00:21:53.721 that is going to really deeply influence performance. 00:21:54.781 --> 00:21:58.121 It creates new ways of hiding the ball. 00:21:59.421 --> 00:22:04.201 Because oftentimes, and again, And this is mostly speaking out of Silicon Valley, 00:22:04.421 --> 00:22:08.401 where there have been tons of experiments of this kind of thing, 00:22:08.521 --> 00:22:10.401 you know, the transparent organization. 00:22:11.481 --> 00:22:16.861 But it's a different philosophy, and it tends to be driven from the top down.

00:22:17.021 --> 00:22:21.461 We will be transparent. It's sort of cascaded down through the organization. 00:22:21.761 --> 00:22:27.561 That's quite different than openness. And we'll get into it more, 00:22:27.781 --> 00:22:34.901 unless should we?

No, I think let's push on with examples. 00:22:35.281 --> 00:22:43.781 I mean, the example I gave you of the electrical worker ending up saying, 00:22:43.781 --> 00:22:48.001 there's no point telling my boss, that's a loss of openness. 00:22:48.501 --> 00:22:56.721 Openness is when every employee down in the trenches who sees something that ought to be attended to. 00:22:58.481 --> 00:23:04.221 Feels psychologically safe to go to somebody and say, I'm a little worried this 00:23:04.221 --> 00:23:09.481 valve doesn't feel quite the same way, you know, as it usually does.

00:23:10.461 --> 00:23:16.661 Openness is creating an environment where that employee will say, well, I'm not sure. 00:23:16.981 --> 00:23:21.301 It's a weak signal, but I think I ought to tell somebody. 00:23:22.304 --> 00:23:28.124 That's what's missing, isn't it, in most safety programs, that willingness of 00:23:28.124 --> 00:23:32.864 everyone to point to things that might be going wrong. 00:23:33.264 --> 00:23:40.964 Because that's what often the accident review discovers, that there were all 00:23:40.964 --> 00:23:42.304 kinds of little signals.

00:23:42.784 --> 00:23:48.204 Somebody saw something that they didn't bother to mention. And had they mentioned 00:23:48.204 --> 00:23:50.124 it, the whole chain would have been different. 00:23:50.564 --> 00:23:56.824 At least in the nuclear situation, for them, that's critical. 00:23:57.224 --> 00:24:01.364 They can't afford to have anything anywhere not be mentioned.

00:24:01.504 --> 00:24:09.764 But even there, it's hard to teach everybody that it's okay to waste time to 00:24:09.764 --> 00:24:13.884 tell stuff that might be a very irrelevant, weak signal. 00:24:13.884 --> 00:24:21.824 So, where it comes down to where this level two relationship is most important 00:24:21.824 --> 00:24:26.704 and most missing, by the way, is in middle management. 00:24:27.084 --> 00:24:35.344 Because middle management is living in a world of schedules. 00:24:36.084 --> 00:24:39.104 Productivity, career competition.

00:24:39.104 --> 00:24:46.904 And so no matter how much the board and senior management says we really are 00:24:46.904 --> 00:24:48.924 concerned about safety, 00:24:48.924 --> 00:24:58.304 I could tell talking to middle managers that that was not really their daily reward system. 00:24:58.544 --> 00:25:03.324 Their daily reward system was not how many employees told them problems. 00:25:03.544 --> 00:25:07.344 Their daily reward system was whether they got the job done or not. 00:25:07.344 --> 00:25:13.484 So the schedule, and if you look at all the big accidents, all the Challenger 00:25:13.484 --> 00:25:21.744 and so on, it was schedule that was overriding the data that some of the engineers were providing.

00:25:22.204 --> 00:25:27.784 They had the data that the O-rings might freeze up, but the politics and the 00:25:27.784 --> 00:25:33.864 schedule and the reward system were at that point not about absolute safety. 00:25:33.864 --> 00:25:41.584 They were about, let's try it out anyway, because politically we'll run the risk. 00:25:41.724 --> 00:25:48.964 And the most terrifying thing I hear is when a hospital director or a senior 00:25:48.964 --> 00:25:55.684 executive says, well, you know, a few fatalities are just the price of doing business. 00:25:56.184 --> 00:26:00.124 And they're not talking about OSHA statistics, they're talking about fatalities.

00:26:01.995 --> 00:26:07.855 They inevitably develop a mentality that, well, it's going to happen anyway. 00:26:07.855 --> 00:26:11.495 It's too difficult to get fatalities to zero. 00:26:11.995 --> 00:26:16.295 So we'll adapt and do what's next best. 00:26:16.775 --> 00:26:20.715 We'll be more efficient.

But the minute you say, 00:26:20.915 --> 00:26:26.715 but are you more effective in the long run, then you begin to see, 00:26:26.875 --> 00:26:38.975 well, maybe the price of that fatality in terms of lawsuits and immoral behavior was not worth it. 00:26:39.255 --> 00:26:44.635 Maybe some companies should go bankrupt if they have too many fatalities. 00:26:45.155 --> 00:26:50.135 So level two is the answer. 00:26:50.335 --> 00:26:56.295 And the question then becomes, what would it take to get that middle manager.

00:26:57.035 --> 00:27:06.055 To create a climate for the direct reports and his fellow middle managers with 00:27:06.055 --> 00:27:09.375 whom he or she is competing for career goodies? 00:27:09.575 --> 00:27:16.635 What would it take for them to create psychological safety for their subordinates? 00:27:16.975 --> 00:27:24.855 The answer is their boss has to institute it in them, which means that their 00:27:24.855 --> 00:27:27.055 boss has to institute it in them. 00:27:27.475 --> 00:27:36.055 So the only answer in the long run is if from the very top you buy into the level two idea.

00:27:37.203 --> 00:27:45.523 Then make it part of the reward system of the organization, not a concept, 00:27:45.943 --> 00:27:47.663 part of the reward system. 00:27:51.683 --> 00:27:55.483 So what do you think? That's part one. Okay.

That's only part one. 00:27:55.603 --> 00:27:58.063 Now, I don't know how much I need to describe or explain. 00:27:58.183 --> 00:28:01.243 You'll have to kind of tell me in the comments, but when he talks about level 00:28:01.243 --> 00:28:05.763 negative one, those are managers with no relationship to their people. 00:28:05.763 --> 00:28:09.903 Level zero is kind of the classic professional relationship.

00:28:10.343 --> 00:28:15.343 Level one is a much more personal relationship, understanding and knowing the 00:28:15.343 --> 00:28:17.643 whole person, family, kids, et cetera, et cetera. 00:28:18.003 --> 00:28:23.563 Level two is an intimate relationship. That's probably different than what we're talking about. 00:28:23.783 --> 00:28:28.583 So those are kind of the levels he sets up.

What's interesting is how he's really 00:28:28.583 --> 00:28:37.183 talking about relationship building and how our classic sort of industrial age, 00:28:37.903 --> 00:28:44.083 Frederick Taylorism understanding of relationship building has been very separate 00:28:44.083 --> 00:28:49.063 and very sterile and how wrong that is and how it impacts the ability to create 00:28:49.063 --> 00:28:54.583 really this idea of trust and confidence. And those are the big words. 00:28:54.703 --> 00:28:57.303 That's kind of, that's my word, but we can, we can deal with it from there. 00:28:57.463 --> 00:29:01.563 That's part one.

I bet you can't even wait for next week and yet you'll have 00:29:01.563 --> 00:29:03.683 to. I know it's, I'm a trickster. 00:29:03.903 --> 00:29:08.423 It sucks. That's it.

You guys, part one is over. Part two is coming up. This is it. 00:29:08.823 --> 00:29:11.823 Have as much fun as you possibly can.

Learn something new every single day. 00:29:11.963 --> 00:29:15.903 I know you did today. And for goodness sakes, you guys be safe. 00:29:16.720 --> 00:29:25.922 Music.