PAPod 520 - Navigating Leadership: From Accountability to Responsibility

Show Transcript

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Music.

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Welcome to the Pre-Accident Investigation Podcast. How are you?

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I'm checking in. I'm seeing if you're okay. Because, you know,

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it's a really important thing to do as a human being.

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I'm trying, you know, I'm trying to focus on doing cool stuff,

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making people happy and getting everything, you know, providing a better world

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for us all in which to live.

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How's that sound? Is that a good outcome?

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It is a marvelous time to be alive. All is well.

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Well, you just can't say enough about how interesting and fun it is to be in New Mexico in the fall.

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Because it just, I've said it to you before a million times,

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so this isn't new news. But it just smells good here.

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I mean, just, you know, they're burning pinyon pine and roasting chilies.

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And just so the air is crisp.

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It's just a nice time to be alive. And so I'm taking a moment and just kind

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of allowing it to happen because, you know, then everything gets really crowded

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with, you know, the stuff we do, the work we do.

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And that's an interesting time as well.

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Plus, I don't know how you guys are doing in the rest of the world,

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but for those of us in the United States, there's a lot going on here.

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I mean, holy cow, I can't decide, do I want to watch the TV or not watch the

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TV? Do I want to expose myself to the world?

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And I don't mean expose myself.

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That'll get me in trouble. But you know what I mean. There's just a gob of things

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happening all at the same time. And I can't decide if it's exciting or scary or both or neither.

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It's just the world in which we live. And don't act like you don't feel the

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same way because I know you do.

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It's just a crazy time to be a human being. but also kind of an opportunity-filled time.

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And that part, I think, is the most exciting part of all the stuff we talk about

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is the opportunities we have are just remarkable.

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And that's kind of what today's podcast is focusing in on, that idea,

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because we're going to have a nice little conversation today.

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And I'm so excited that you can be a part of it. It's between a young man named Mark Hohmeyer,

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who spent an entire professional lifetime working in the maritime industry as a vessel master.

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But then he went on to sort of, as they say in the maritime world,

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spend some time on the beach as a kind of a leader amongst many vessels.

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And he has moved into, because there's so much pull right now in the maritime

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industry for the stuff we talk about,

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for this notion of how do we build systems that can understand variation and

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variability, but also be dependable and reliable.

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And there's just been a lot of attention. I mean, you know that because you

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exist in the same world I do.

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And Mark goes out and helps all sorts of organizations, not just maritime organizations,

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but all sorts of organizations, understand their role properly.

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Especially at the leadership level. And so it's a super interesting conversation

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that I think you're going to enjoy immensely.

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I'm so excited for you to hear it because Mark is just a great human being.

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So that's a great starting place, but he's a great human being who's thought

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a lot about what leadership means and what accountability means and its relationship

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with expectations and responsibility and how you create these super interesting,

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high-performing teams, which is kind of in the maritime industry what they do.

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I mean, it's these little teams that perform this function, which happens to

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be this giant ship full of stuff,

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but it's a great conversation to have and you get to be a part of it.

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So that is exciting at every single level.

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I can't even wait for you to have that conversation.

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But checking back in from my side, still on the same bicycle.

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Nothing untoward has happened.

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In fact, I'm about to go jump on it now. So I'll give you the full report on

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how that is because it's a nice day.

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And if it's a nice day, I need to go and do stuff. And that's exactly what I'm going to do.

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But before that, let's take a minute and listen to the pod.

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This is a conversation between you, me, and Mark Hohmeyer.

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And we're going to talk about the world as it progresses and how important it

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is to set clear expectations for workers so they can form a super good team.

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Bout didn't get that out. I mean, but it came out at the end, so that's fine.

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So without any further ado, here's Mark and our conversation.

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What do you think it is that you bring to the table that people like?

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I definitely think it's, I've walked a mile in the worker's shoes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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And then I've also spent some time in the management, on the management side.

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So I understand the dilemma.

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Can I throw a word out there? It's a dilemma. It's more of, you know,

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it's a stool with a couple of legs and they lean up against each other.

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And there's a push and a pull that kind of comes with it. Wow.

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So you're going with that metaphor over dilemma?

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Dilemma is you think you think a two-legged stool

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that pushes and pulls on itself i'm i'll have

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to spend like a weekend drawing that out of my head okay

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i yeah i'm there's a push pull to it i think that i i i understand the management

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side i i definitely say if i turn over my collar it's blue so i'm i'm a worker

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at heart you know at the at the end of the day and i think that push pulls a

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pretty interesting part of it.

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I mean, that's, it's, there's a, there's an irony to leadership.

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That's interesting and no one hardly ever talks about it, but once you become

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a leader, then you're not a worker.

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Yeah. It's hard for, I think as a leader, looking back in retrospect,

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I think it took me a while to recognize that I couldn't see things as a worker

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as accurately as I could before, right?

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But I think as leaders, getting out in the field and really getting down and

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being curious is super important.

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It seems so obvious, but I'm shocked by conversations I've had with leadership

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people who just don't feel like it's their responsibility.

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So why do you think they don't feel, because I'm super interested in that.

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I think they think they have people to do that for them.

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Yeah, that's a good answer. And I think they think they already know.

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Oh, yeah, no, they definitely know. It's, yeah.

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And so the lack of curiosity, well, I think that's not fair.

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It's not a lack of curiosity.

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It's they're curious about different things, but they also manage and lead different things.

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Sure and and to give a to give

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credence to being a leader you know

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you have a lot of other really important things that are distracting that can

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make it harder you know are you familiar with jim senegal yeah but why well

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he was the i say this i i went to b school with a couple three VPs from Costco.

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And Jim Senegal was the co-founder and CEO. That's why.

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And his big thing in his company was to go.

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He would go out and push carts in the parking lots with, he would travel to all the warehouses.

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That's what they call them, warehouses. And he would push the carts with the folks out in the lot.

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And then he would go into the stores and urge the warehouses.

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And he knew exactly where everything was supposed to be. So he's very connected with the front line.

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And they just revere him.

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Universally, you would have a hard time finding somebody who wasn't just electrified

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by the opportunity to spend time with Jim Senegal.

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He was just one of those guys that, and it seems so simple, you know,

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go spend time with your people.

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Yeah. I mean, it, it sounds simple, but I mean, you don't get to 200 and whatever,

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$35 billion a year in sales without doing something like that, I think.

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But, but, but the, the downside is that then they're overcome.

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They have to create time to do that.

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Absolutely. Yeah. So, so therefore it has to become important and getting it to be important.

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That's, I don't know, it seems like it's really hard. It's just a really interesting

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time for me. So thinking about that.

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Yeah. Well, in management, you know, we wouldn't think anything of spending two or three hours,

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two or three times a week in a budget meeting or, you know, some sort of finance

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meeting, but taking two or three hours to go visit your people in the field

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is really hard to hard for people to get their head around.

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And you learn so much in just those couple, three hours. I think I,

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I was always, I spent, I think I, I guess the reason I said Jim Senegal is because I,

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in my latter years as a manager, I really made it a regular practice to get

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out and walk the ship with my guys.

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And I didn't have to talk to the manager.

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I just spent time with the frontline guys on the deck.

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And I, but within a half an hour, I was real clear on exactly where the ship

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was, you know, in terms of its culture, safety, everything.

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I, it was a complete download right there. So it's better data.

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It's quicker data. Very effective.

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It's much more accurate data. And then what would you do once you walk the ship?

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How would you interface then with the leadership of that vessel?

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Would just sit down and talk with them and say,

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what i'm seeing or what's fun is the captains you know they they're of course

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they're communicating by radio so they know when i come aboard of course and

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of course the captain's in the house he's here he's here look busy look busy

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oh no they're in the middle of doing cargo so it's fine but they.

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The captain would be perched up in his window looking down and you i sometimes

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an indicator if the captain would put on his coveralls and come down on deck

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you know that was a good indicator of how he interacts with his crew. If he didn't.

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That also was sort of a telltale side, but sometimes the captains would come

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down and like, Hey, what's you guys doing?

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How's it going? Cause I, I guess I'd make them a little nervous cause I had

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spent so much time with the crew. Yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure.

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It drove great conversations because I came up already with a list of questions

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that I was really interested in.

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The other thing I would do is spend time reviewing their safety meeting minutes

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and near miss reporting data. So I had a good understanding of where they were when I walked on.

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I thought that was really, for me, I felt very informed.

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I wasn't often surprised in my latter years. Something didn't come out of nowhere

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at me where I was like, whoa, I was a manager.

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I mean, of course, serious incidents happen the way they happen.

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But the culture of the ship, to be surprised by some issue between the management

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of the ship and the crew, I was always pretty clear on, yeah,

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I had a good sense of where we were.

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I really like that idea that serious incidents happen the way they happen.

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It's kind of sort of the definition of an accident, you know,

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is an unexpected combination of normal performance variabilities.

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Take that one step further. Why is that an interesting way to say it? Why did you say that?

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Well i think you know

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you talked you know you have talked about being

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able to have controls to manage things there

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and that there are some things that are beyond control you know

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they're beyond your controls or or beyond your imagination right right right

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you can't you can't see them coming i think i'm sorry going to take an off ramp

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here i think culturally the big shift was for me was when you get away from

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blaming and punishing people, which we did pretty successfully,

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people started to really, they were, they were, they had, they were tuned up

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to look for issues, right?

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So they just take a different approach when instead of being on the defensive,

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they're sort of like, I guess on the offensive, you know, they're looking for

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things, they're probing things, and they're really interested to bring those

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things to the fore, right?

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And I think they understand that if things go wrong, even if they are probing,

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they just go wrong. I mean, it happens.

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And how can we learn from it and move forward? What do we learn from this that we can use?

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I think I spent the last, I don't know, probably seven or eight years in my

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organization when I was in a leadership role.

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I don't recall a single instance where we punished anybody for anything.

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I mean, we made it a, I mean, we punished people for.

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Well, you discipline. Yeah. I mean, you had to discipline people. I mean.

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Yeah. But, but I mean, I'm talking about from an operation, you know,

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if there was an operational gap, we understood that there was a gap and where can we go with this?

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Where can we, how can we learn? Yeah.

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But you asked me to expand on that. I would say there's an understanding that

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things are going to happen.

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And I think the value of the employee is to be, if you change the culture from

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one where they're sort of on the defensive to on the offensive,

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they seem to be, they're probing for the next thing.

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And they're excited to bring what they've fleshed out as issues to the fore.

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And, you know, we got a lot of the a lot of the things that we got toward,

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you know, in the latter years were really super clever ways that came from the

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front line of ways to avoid major incidents.

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Yeah. That idea of moving from defensive to offensive.

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I've actually never thought about it that way. I mean, it's a it's a really

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pretty it's a good way to think of it. I just hadn't thought about it.

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How do you get a leadership team to deliberately make that shift?

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Yeah, that's a great question. Well, you brought it up.

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Well, I guess I was the, I was the, I think it's about understanding that,

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Your workers are, I feel like I'm kind of parroting a lot of stuff here,

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but it's understanding that your workers are really have got the solution for you.

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They are really, they're the gift that keeps on giving.

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But that's a huge shift. I mean, I don't think that's a parrot in as much as,

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I think that is a huge shift in thinking.

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I mean, that's the one thing I think this kind of new approach to understanding

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operational reliability is brought to the table is that the workforce isn't the problem.

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Right. Oh, absolutely. The workforce is really the solution to go out and listen to.

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They're adaptively creating success all the time.

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Here's what I'll say. I think – so we started off – I think the evolution goes

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something like this for me, Todd.

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It starts off that we, in management, we hold people accountable and we have

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expectations. Well, then we come to find out that, lo and behold,

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we haven't been real good at expressing our expectations to our employees.

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So then we have that. Which I totally agree with. 100% agree with.

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So once we get to this place where management is real clear about setting expectations

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and managing those expectations over time, and you see a lot of fruit that comes from that.

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The step that I think really turns the corner is when you take expectations

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and accountability and turn them into trust and responsibility.

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And by that, I mean, when your employees understand that you trust them,

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that they are the guys that know how to do the work and they will be really successful at that.

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And I trust you to do that work well, to execute well for me,

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you know, to execute appropriately in the circumstance.

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It just it changes it from expectation is

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sort of a something that you put on somebody else responsibility something

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i put on me i'm responsible i don't i don't i'm not accountable i'm responsible

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and i think that it for me it hits differently i don't have that it doesn't

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it resonates differently with me accountability feels sort of like finger wagging

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responsibility feels like,

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hey man, this guy's trusting you to do this work.

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But I like how you're building that relationship, that coupling between expectation

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setting and responsibility.

00:17:32.552 --> 00:17:36.372
That one can't, if I'm hearing you right, one can't exist without the other.

00:17:36.572 --> 00:17:40.592
And I actually think you're onto something because I think we're not very good

00:17:40.592 --> 00:17:42.992
at setting up expectations.

00:17:43.952 --> 00:17:47.812
I think we think we're good at it, but we're not terribly good at it.

00:17:47.812 --> 00:17:51.212
And I think the expectations oftentimes go to cross purposes.

00:17:51.232 --> 00:17:53.492
So I hear you say...

00:17:54.531 --> 00:17:57.771
Do this as fast as possible, make as much money as possible.

00:17:58.291 --> 00:18:04.011
And you are saying, take your time, no need to hurry. You never need to rush.

00:18:04.351 --> 00:18:08.591
There's sort of this cross message there, this goal conflict that oftentimes

00:18:08.591 --> 00:18:13.211
it would be fixed if we clarified those expectations. That's a really an interesting idea.

00:18:13.771 --> 00:18:17.291
Yeah, right. And I think, again, I think

00:18:17.291 --> 00:18:20.691
the place where this goes from working well

00:18:20.691 --> 00:18:24.271
to maybe being excellent and having where you

00:18:24.271 --> 00:18:27.171
where the sky's the limit and in high high

00:18:27.171 --> 00:18:31.511
performance is when you move away from accountability

00:18:31.511 --> 00:18:34.511
into responsibility and i know i'm these are

00:18:34.511 --> 00:18:37.351
just this is my way of thinking when i

00:18:37.351 --> 00:18:40.371
take it upon myself when i feel responsible because

00:18:40.371 --> 00:18:43.231
these people trust me to do good work i just

00:18:43.231 --> 00:18:47.991
think that sets up a whole different relationship oh

00:18:47.991 --> 00:18:51.351
totally and i found employees

00:18:51.351 --> 00:18:54.311
to be exceptionally responsible for

00:18:54.311 --> 00:18:58.191
their work under those circumstances they're like and

00:18:58.191 --> 00:19:06.151
when we do have failures and i think i've heard you talk about this too the

00:19:06.151 --> 00:19:13.651
time when it goes poorly they often will come to me initially and want to be

00:19:13.651 --> 00:19:15.171
responsible for the outcome.

00:19:15.631 --> 00:19:17.931
And then I try to, you know, what I'm doing is I'm like, look,

00:19:18.071 --> 00:19:20.251
I got you, let's turn the corner.

00:19:20.491 --> 00:19:25.231
And how can we take this and make it better in the future? What can we do with

00:19:25.231 --> 00:19:28.291
that? And that just totally flips the script on them.

00:19:28.591 --> 00:19:32.871
And, and, and it's, it's, it's really an interesting moment in time too,

00:19:33.071 --> 00:19:34.971
because they come in ready to fall on the sword.

00:19:35.411 --> 00:19:39.291
And you say, I know you feel like you screwed this up, but if we stop learning

00:19:39.291 --> 00:19:41.991
here, all we've learned is that you screwed this up.

00:19:42.111 --> 00:19:46.251
I mean, We need to understand the richer context. Wow.

00:19:46.611 --> 00:19:49.831
What an interesting, super interesting.

00:19:50.211 --> 00:19:51.851
You've really thought about this. How come?

00:19:54.991 --> 00:20:02.091
Well, it really excites me. I love being, it comes down to that teamwork thing.

00:20:02.171 --> 00:20:07.751
I think when I love high performing teams, I love to be a part of a high performing team.

00:20:08.191 --> 00:20:12.011
I think everybody really wants to be on a winning team. Yeah, I agree.

00:20:14.331 --> 00:20:19.331
And there's something about that that is very intoxicating when things are going well.

00:20:19.431 --> 00:20:23.531
And then even when things don't go well for everybody to kind of circle the

00:20:23.531 --> 00:20:26.291
wagons and like, okay, how can we fix this?

00:20:26.391 --> 00:20:28.831
We've got all the resources that we need to fix it.

00:20:29.331 --> 00:20:34.971
How can we make this better instead of going to, you know, this guy didn't do

00:20:34.971 --> 00:20:36.811
this or this guy should have done that.

00:20:37.551 --> 00:20:39.611
And that mindset shift.

00:20:40.794 --> 00:20:49.174
It's totally, it's possible. It just takes time in the organization to move away from the blame.

00:20:49.954 --> 00:20:55.234
Blaming really is also very intoxicating. It's really, that stuff's crazy.

00:20:55.634 --> 00:21:00.774
It's not good. No, but you're right. It's somehow emotionally satisfying.

00:21:01.074 --> 00:21:06.254
For a minute. Yeah, it's like peeing in your pants.

00:21:06.494 --> 00:21:09.094
Actually. It's a relief and then it's creepy.

00:21:10.114 --> 00:21:13.194
I've gotten to this place where i don't even it's not

00:21:13.194 --> 00:21:16.314
even it just i immediately walk away

00:21:16.314 --> 00:21:19.294
from from it when i feel it i as soon as i feel

00:21:19.294 --> 00:21:22.294
that blame thing i i shift immediately to okay

00:21:22.294 --> 00:21:24.974
look at the context of this whole thing what could we

00:21:24.974 --> 00:21:31.894
have done differently here how could we how what system could we adjust or adapt

00:21:31.894 --> 00:21:38.634
that would would make this better and and then really i'm looking to my people

00:21:38.634 --> 00:21:44.114
to tell me what that solution is yeah yeah yeah yeah especially interestingly.

00:21:45.514 --> 00:21:50.414
Even at the vessel level a lot of the times it's the it's the people that are

00:21:50.414 --> 00:21:55.314
as close to the to the front line are that usually are the ones that come up

00:21:55.314 --> 00:21:59.474
with the solution it's not the captain or somebody up the food chain it's usually

00:21:59.474 --> 00:22:03.854
right down there at the coalface you know that they'll come up with that, you know, if we did this.

00:22:03.994 --> 00:22:08.274
And when you, when you do that, it seems so obvious.

00:22:08.674 --> 00:22:13.334
The solution seems so elementary, but they are so impactful and valuable.

00:22:14.154 --> 00:22:18.074
Yeah. How do the leaders respond to this message when you talk to them?

00:22:18.414 --> 00:22:22.094
When you go out, work with a company, have this conversation,

00:22:22.414 --> 00:22:23.934
do they look at you like you're crazy?

00:22:24.274 --> 00:22:27.514
Do they hug you or any place in between?

00:22:28.294 --> 00:22:29.954
Yeah, it's all over the map. I, I,

00:22:30.910 --> 00:22:35.390
i think they well you know now they've had an opportunity to see that other

00:22:35.390 --> 00:22:41.210
organizational leaders have adopted this and are looking at it so i think i

00:22:41.210 --> 00:22:47.090
often i'm coming in and organizations have already had some exposure to human

00:22:47.090 --> 00:22:48.950
and organizational performance and so,

00:22:49.550 --> 00:22:55.250
i think they they have the grassroots understanding coming into it of what you

00:22:55.250 --> 00:23:00.010
know where we're looking to go i'm again i i have to say usually.

00:23:00.910 --> 00:23:04.270
I would say that organizationally, generally speaking, they get it.

00:23:04.410 --> 00:23:09.310
They just have a lot of other pressing issues on their mind to keep them busy,

00:23:09.590 --> 00:23:13.550
you know, to keep a lot of focus on, which is making the company make money.

00:23:13.890 --> 00:23:20.890
And I totally get that. I think the trick is how do you make money by being

00:23:20.890 --> 00:23:27.870
high performing in the world in this, you know, around the world of safety and reliability.

00:23:27.870 --> 00:23:34.950
Like trying to get them to understand that if they're really highly reliable

00:23:34.950 --> 00:23:41.270
and a safe organization, that the cost-benefit analysis on that works, that it makes sense.

00:23:41.510 --> 00:23:46.010
Yeah, not cutting corners definitely makes sense. And it builds confidence.

00:23:46.290 --> 00:23:49.290
It builds confidence in the people, builds confidence in the leaders,

00:23:49.390 --> 00:23:51.130
and builds confidence in your system.

00:23:51.270 --> 00:23:56.030
Yeah. I always try to remember you're only as good as you believe you are.

00:23:56.030 --> 00:24:01.890
Yeah, I think you said something about it being like not being a safety program

00:24:01.890 --> 00:24:09.370
and being more of a core part of the organization rather than it's not you have a safety program.

00:24:09.650 --> 00:24:12.810
Safety is just intrinsic to your operation.

00:24:13.330 --> 00:24:19.950
It's just a part of how you do business. Yeah, it's not it's not a program. Yeah, it's a practice.

00:24:21.090 --> 00:24:24.330
It's just what you do. Wow. How fun.

00:24:24.450 --> 00:24:27.730
So are you having fun doing it? yes i it's really enjoyable i

00:24:27.730 --> 00:24:31.150
really enjoy the i really enjoy the interaction especially

00:24:31.150 --> 00:24:33.850
when i get to get it i i've been trying to get

00:24:33.850 --> 00:24:36.590
out with the the organization ahead of time so i'll go a

00:24:36.590 --> 00:24:39.370
day early just so i can go ride around and see stuff because

00:24:39.370 --> 00:24:42.050
i i love to see how the organization runs i get

00:24:42.050 --> 00:24:44.990
so much out of that yeah yeah yeah i just want

00:24:44.990 --> 00:24:47.770
to you know be a sponge and just take up as much as

00:24:47.770 --> 00:24:50.990
i can from that and it helps me focus

00:24:50.990 --> 00:24:55.850
in on exactly the things that i think will be most helpful to them cool as you

00:24:55.850 --> 00:25:00.070
know as you say over time there's some things that are very valuable that they've

00:25:00.070 --> 00:25:04.870
already adapted you know they're already working there's it's not a linear approach

00:25:04.870 --> 00:25:08.790
right there's they are moving in great directions in certain places and they're

00:25:08.790 --> 00:25:10.830
you know they're lagging behind on others like.

00:25:10.960 --> 00:25:16.720
Music.

00:25:17.038 --> 00:25:20.438
So as crazy as this sounds, and it's going to sound kind of crazy,

00:25:20.678 --> 00:25:25.698
I never really thought about that offensive, defensive posturing for leadership.

00:25:26.158 --> 00:25:30.358
I mean, it's totally true, and it's a pretty good way to talk about it.

00:25:30.358 --> 00:25:36.018
And I just never kind of put that together, is that what happens is we oftentimes

00:25:36.018 --> 00:25:40.458
have leadership teams who are clearly in a defensive posture,

00:25:40.838 --> 00:25:44.458
especially as it relates to things like systems reliability,

00:25:44.718 --> 00:25:46.018
operational reliability,

00:25:46.558 --> 00:25:49.038
operational stability, the kind of stuff we talk about all the time.

00:25:49.438 --> 00:25:53.058
And what's interesting is that if they're in a defensive posture,

00:25:53.378 --> 00:25:57.138
then they're always going to be reactive. Absolutely. I mean, without question.

00:25:57.798 --> 00:26:01.878
What's amazing to me is when you shift to an offensive posture,

00:26:02.138 --> 00:26:05.058
you're actually looking for problems in normal work.

00:26:05.238 --> 00:26:10.198
And you're trying to best understand sort of how normal operations work with

00:26:10.198 --> 00:26:14.898
an eye on, a weather eye, if I can use a maritime expression.

00:26:15.098 --> 00:26:18.278
Thank you very much. A weather eye on what's yet to come.

00:26:18.638 --> 00:26:25.458
And I think that's a super, super elegant way to talk about this. Thank you, Mark.

00:26:26.018 --> 00:26:29.298
Way to go. way to blow my mind a little.

00:26:29.658 --> 00:26:36.078
I'll take that. I'm always open to new information, and I'm super open to cool

00:26:36.078 --> 00:26:38.778
ways to think about stuff, and you did it both.

00:26:39.238 --> 00:26:42.918
Man, that was great. Thank you so much. Thanks for listening.

00:26:43.138 --> 00:26:45.798
Tell your friends the podcast is open. It's free. It's easy.

00:26:45.898 --> 00:26:48.158
It's always available. There's a million of them.

00:26:48.538 --> 00:26:52.618
I mean, it seems like there's a million. It is awesome when I look at how many

00:26:52.618 --> 00:26:57.718
there are that we've done this many podcasts. I find that it's just interesting.

00:26:58.558 --> 00:27:03.738
There's been a lot of conversation, hours and hours and hours and hours of conversations.

00:27:04.098 --> 00:27:07.798
I hope you learned something new today, and I hope you get a chance to learn

00:27:07.798 --> 00:27:08.978
something new every single day.

00:27:09.638 --> 00:27:12.218
Learn as much as you can, have as much fun as you possibly can.

00:27:12.378 --> 00:27:14.958
Be good to each other, be kind to each other, check into each other,

00:27:15.058 --> 00:27:17.558
and for goodness sakes, you guys, be safe.

00:27:17.520 --> 00:27:28.364
Music.