PAPod 522 - Remix - Unveiling the Future of Safety and Resilience with Eric Hollenagle

Show Transcript

WEBVTT

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Sit back and relax. It's a big podcast day. This, my friends,

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is the Eric Hollenagle Show. We'll be right back.

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Music.

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Howdy, everybody. It's Todd Conkron, and this is the Pre-Accident Podcast. How are you today?

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Good, I hope. Hey, it's a big show. This will be kind of exciting.

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If you've not heard of or ever been a part of a discussion around the ETO principle,

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E-T-T-O, Efficiency, Thernus, Trade-Off,

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or Safety 1, Safety 2, or the FRAM, the Functional Residence Model,

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or, gosh, I could just go on for months, months, I tell you.

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Then if you haven't ever had those kind of conversations, today's going to be

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a really exciting day for you because everything's going to be new and shiny

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like a penny found on the street.

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And if you have, you're probably even more excited because if you had had these

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conversations today, you're going to get to talk to somebody who is just quite amazing.

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Eric Hall and I roll and Eric is just a fine human being. Let's start with there.

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And I didn't think I would get him on the podcast, but I kind of tricked him.

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I'm not saying I blackmailed him. I tricked him. It's more it's it's less severe

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than blackmail. But he had to introduce me at a conference a couple of weeks

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ago, and he asked me to write some things down for the introduction. And I said, I'd love to.

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I'll give them to you when we record a podcast.

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And he fell for it. I mean, he totally fell for it. Just hook,

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line, and sinker. Boom. I had him. So that is how that started,

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and we'll get to that in a minute.

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Let's bring you up on the speed of light in the world around us.

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It's, you know, it's an exciting day. I've

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had tremendous amounts of things go

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on and many things to talk to you about but probably

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the big one I should talk to you about is the power of

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resilience and the reason I'm going to tell you about the

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power of resilience is because I spilt not a coke not a diet coke but in fact

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a coke zero sugar pretty much a full-blown coke zero sugar I spilled from the

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little plastic tray on the back of the airline seat into my briefcase.

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And luckily for me, my briefcase was holding my computer.

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And luckily for me, my computer was standing upright. So like on the skinny

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end, it was standing up because, you know, it was in the briefcase.

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And even more luckily for me, I'd put the top of the case, not the keyboard

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where the clamshell closes, but the back hinge where the vents are for cooling the laptop.

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So when I did spill that Coke Zero sugar, it did travel into my briefcase and

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directly down into my computer.

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Yes, it's true. I lost it all. It was gone. It was a sad day for my computer.

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Oh, so sad. And it's kind of non-recoverable, although I did take it to the

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computer place because they said it's worth taking it to the computer place.

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But I'm pretty sure if the Coke can live through, I mean, well, I'm sure the Coke lived.

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If the computer lives through the Coke Zero Sugar bath, I will be amazed because not a lot.

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I mean, it's just one of those little, you know, it's an airplane.

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You've been on a million of them.

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One of those little plastic cups on that little tray.

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And see, you probably can just lean that tray out and casually work on it.

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For me, I have to kind of suck in a little to bring the tray down,

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and I moved around, and it turned the tray, and it went up, and you can write the ending.

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I kind of wish that the Coke would have gone in the magazine pocket,

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because I don't really own the magazine pocket, nor do I care much about it.

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But alas, it went into my briefcase.

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But there's good news. Yes, I have good news for you. And the good news is, is I back it up.

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And that is the power of resilience. I can't control when I'm going to spill a Coke in my briefcase.

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Clearly, I think I've proven that beyond a shadow of a doubt that that I clearly cannot control.

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But what I can control is my

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response to a coke being spilled in

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my briefcase and my response was that I

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had a backup and I had to get a new computer you knew that was coming and I

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plugged it into the little thing and it said do you want to start new or do

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you want to copy off your old computer and I clicked copy off your old computer

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and 45 minutes later probably even that long. I probably made that up.

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A little period of time, let's say 45 minutes, that's kind of an estimate later,

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it looked just like my last computer.

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It was just, you know, a little bit.

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I lost some notes that I'd taken, and I lost an article I brought down about

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the school bus driver in Chattanooga.

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But I think I can still find it, because I was really interested in that school

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bus driver, because they're saying he was on the phone, but he's saying he was

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not on the phone. There was another truck involved.

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So it's getting the stories now starting to build around culpability.

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Well, it's already, I would say, built around culpability. But now it's starting

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to it's moving into sort of lawyer speak. And so that's interesting as well.

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That is my giant story. That took a long time to tell.

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But the good news is The reason I'm not so upset about it And I'm really not

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It's just a computer, right?

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Is I think because it was backed up And that really is that emphasis around

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The notion of resilience that I think Makes the biggest difference in the world

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So that is kind of what we're going to talk about Now,

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to get started on this podcast I'm going to jump right in because I've already

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probably Taken too much of your time telling that stupid story Eric and I sat down,

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And the first thing I ask him is what's the future look like,

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which is normally a question I kind of saved till the end, but I was really

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curious to see what he had to say. So let's jump into this podcast.

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This is Eric Hallnagel and Todd Conklin on the Pre-Accident Podcast.

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Listen carefully because the first thing he's going to say is kind of what he's

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thinking about is happening next.

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On the next three or four years, I don't think we'll see much real difference.

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We'll see growing interest.

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But I mean, if you see it playing out in the sense of having an impact,

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you're talking 10, 15 years or even more.

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Look at the paradigms that we have now.

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I don't know where it will be going. I know what I'm interested in is to actually

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try and get rid of the word safety and the term safety and to look at system performance.

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Safety is an aspect of system performance, but I'm interested in how systems

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organizations function and to understand that functioning and to be able to

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manage that functioning.

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And safety in the classical sense is the part of that, but so is quality, so is sustainability,

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so is customer satisfaction, so is efficiency, see so many environmental impact

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or, I mean, there's so many things that are part of that.

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And really, I want to see them together and want to understand how they work together.

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But isn't that close to sort of blasphemous? I mean, does that,

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do you get pushback when you talk about that outside of the academy?

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Actually, I don't talk much about it in the academy. I'm not really an academic anymore.

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But no, in fact, people are very interested in that because I think you must

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have seen that yourself,

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that people feel that they are stuck in silos and they treat safety as if you

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could treat it isolated from whatever else happens in an organization.

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And we all know you can't.

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It's just that we don't have the concepts and the terminology and the ideas

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really to bind it all together.

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And I think that's, for me, what's interesting and what I'm trying in my own

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feeble way to work a little at.

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But I don't know whether that's where it's going. I do see we have in healthcare

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had over the last conferences in resilient healthcare, a number of papers that

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sort of tried to dissolve the difference between quality and safety.

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And I think that's certainly the right way to go.

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Tell us about your journey. How did you get to where you are?

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What led you to think about these ideas?

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That's a question I find very difficult to answer because the honest answer is it just happened.

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I mean, it wasn't a journey as in retrospect, yes, you can see I have sailed

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these waves and then changed course here and there, but it wasn't pre-planned

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in any way. It just happened.

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What started your interest? I mean, what made it start to happen?

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Was there an accident? Did somebody include you in a failure?

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I mean, where'd this kind of take its origin? Yeah.

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Hard to say. I mean, of course, I was working with nuclear control room design

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and human machine systems when Tremont Island happened,

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of course, and that focused everybody's interest in a certain direction.

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And as a psychologist, I was always a bit skeptical about the idea of human

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error as a separate cause and a special cause and looking at things that go wrong all the time.

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So, I think it's more or less that by working with the issues and by talking

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with, discussing with colleagues, good colleagues, I mean, one of the people I met in,

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I think before TMI in 78,

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was David Woods and he was a young brash boy at the time and we had a lot of

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interesting discussions and I think talking with David,

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talking with other people and And hearing that and sort of when you sit down and talk,

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you say, well, what about this and what about that and could it be and it gradually

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starts to develop and you think that you find that some things are interesting,

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other things aren't and you follow that and it's a passage.

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I mean, it ended here. It could have ended anywhere else. Yeah.

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So it's just serendipity, really. So you could be like a really famous author

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around baking cakes, if cakes would have been the serendipitous outcome of this outcome.

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Probably. I like making cakes, actually. I haven't created any new cakes on

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my own, but I like to bake cakes and pastry.

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But, yeah, I mean, listen, if you ask me 10 years ago or even certainly 20 years

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ago, where would I be today? I would never have said I would be sitting here

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and talking to you. I wouldn't even have known who you were.

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And I wouldn't have known this world. And it just happened. I mean,

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it's not planned in any sense.

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And yet you've had this remarkable impact. I mean, and you know this,

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although you may not know, but the impact you've had has been very powerful.

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In really starting a conversation, at least in industry, around the trade-offs

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between being efficient and being thorough, being safe and being productive.

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And what's so interesting about that is I think that's always existed,

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but I think you brought it to the conversation in a way that allowed both operations

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people and academics to come together and see a ray of light.

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That notion of that trade-off has, I think, really changed the way we look at reliable systems.

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And that's powerful.

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What started all that? I mean, was that a bolt of lightning one day?

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Well, it's the same Hans has before. I don't really know. I should say what

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I'm probably trying to do all the time is trying to make sense out of things for myself.

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And so then I think I understand what's going on.

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And this idea about the trade office is, of course, very old in psychology.

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And it just turned out to me that this seems like a useful thing.

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And I noticed that I work with people, work with industries.

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And it's just like you get an idea and you begin to look for it and you suddenly see it everywhere.

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And that's where you have to be a bit cautious because you shouldn't take over.

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Because it is just an idea. It's not a psychological mechanism.

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It's just a convenient way of describing things.

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And any convenient way of describing things will capture something that's essential

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and throw away things that also potentially could be essential.

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And that's why you have to be very careful all the time about how you describe things.

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But again, don't ask me how I came to think about that.

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It just happened someday for some reason.

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I may have read something somewhere or heard something. I don't know.

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That, I think, is the amazing part of it is that I think you hit on it perfectly.

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It's the way you see the world.

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And I think what you bring to the table or to the discussion is a very,

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very interesting worldview.

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And that's, I mean, it's really apparent when you read your books,

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the writing you've done.

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I mean, the remarkable way you really try to look at complexity and the way

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you look at sort of causation models, it's been really powerful.

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And really, you're kind of maybe a one-man campaign to sort of expand the world's

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understanding of cause.

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Has that served you well or has that been a rough road to hoe?

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I don't feel I'm on a campaign to do anything. things.

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Sometimes I do feel I'm a one man, not quite alone because others think and

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act in the same way, but I'm not really trying to make a campaign for anything.

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As I said, and this is really honest, I really try to understand things myself,

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to make sense of things myself and the world,

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whatever happens in the world, and that needs sometimes concepts and ideas that

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I can't find, and then I stumble upon them,

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or we talked about, apropos, podcasts and reading,

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and I mean, I've read a lot, I still read a lot, and I think a lot of what I've

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read over the years, it's there in the back of my mind, and the mind works in

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a weird and wonderful way, and you read something else and something clicks and say,

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isn't that a bit like it reminds you of and then something pops up.

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You can't really explain it. It just happens.

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But I think you can, I wouldn't even say I prepare it, but I have a pleasure

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in reading many different things, many different sciences of books of all kinds.

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And I think there are sort of nuggets there that, I mean, one thing,

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the term I've used and many others have used is what you look for is what you find.

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But sometimes what you look for is not what you're conscious you look for,

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but you still look for it because the brain has this ability to relate what

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you perceive to what's in there, even though you can't remember what's in there.

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And then sometimes a little signal pops up and you work a bit on it and it turns

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out to be useful and that's how it works.

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But I mean, it's a mystery to me. If you were to advise people...

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The books that you've written to read, what do you think you'd have them read?

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What are the books that you think you're most proud of, you're most effective with?

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That's a good question, I know. That's an answer to a question.

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Well, you mentioned the Eto'o principle, and I think that I'm pretty proud of that.

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I think that was a neat way of formulating an idea that had been existing for a long time.

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Others have thought of before, but being fortunate to be able to come up with

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examples to illustrate that, I think that's very important when you write something

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to be able to illustrate it.

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So I think the etta principle is something I feel is a nice piece of work.

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And I mean, the two other ones that are really, I don't want to say I'm proud

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of them, but that I really think are decent works are Fram and Safety 1 and Safety 2.

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I think Fram in particular, Safety 1 and Safety 2, is not that original because

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this idea about you can look at things in different ways has been around for many times.

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And the ideas of Fram, of course, has also been around, but not sort of put

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together in a single place before.

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And I think that is perhaps a bit original, but I'm not sure how much.

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And the frame is something I was still working on and still developing and still being extended.

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I think your framework, at least for my career at the National Laboratories

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in the United States, that book changed the way we really thought about learning

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technically across the board.

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It was a powerful tool for us.

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And the timing seemed really right. And it really was,

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as odd as this sounds, at the time it was somewhat controversial to talk about

00:18:33.309 --> 00:18:36.829
cause other than sort of monocausal phenomena.

00:18:37.269 --> 00:18:44.029
And that surprises me. But maybe it surprises me just because of work you've

00:18:44.029 --> 00:18:45.409
done and others like you.

00:18:45.569 --> 00:18:48.849
We've sort of moved beyond the fallacy of monocausality.

00:18:49.029 --> 00:18:52.829
But it's a powerful force. And you see it in industry. I mean,

00:18:53.229 --> 00:18:55.269
that's what we try to tackle.

00:18:55.949 --> 00:19:03.429
What advice would you give a person who's managing work, who's actually out

00:19:03.429 --> 00:19:07.369
in the field doing this new work?

00:19:07.669 --> 00:19:12.749
What would you tell them to think about or to listen to or to read?

00:19:13.994 --> 00:19:20.394
Well, can I just come back to one thing you said? Absolutely. The word timing.

00:19:21.194 --> 00:19:26.954
I mean, because I think maybe I've just been lucky I've come up with some ideas

00:19:26.954 --> 00:19:30.334
and the environment has been receptive to them.

00:19:30.454 --> 00:19:34.534
Others have come up with the same ideas at a time when the environment was not receptive to them.

00:19:34.634 --> 00:19:39.974
So it's very much about timing you sort of the right thought at the right time.

00:19:40.254 --> 00:19:43.354
And you can't control that. That's just sheer luck.

00:19:44.434 --> 00:19:51.054
It happens. Well, if I may, I would also suggest that the way you package the

00:19:51.054 --> 00:19:57.494
ideas and the way you create analogies and discussions and case studies and examples,

00:19:57.694 --> 00:20:03.574
I think actually makes these rather esoteric concepts more impactful.

00:20:03.734 --> 00:20:08.414
I think that's one thing you bring to the field is a remarkable way to look

00:20:08.414 --> 00:20:14.734
at pretty woolly ideas and make them have realistic applications.

00:20:15.314 --> 00:20:18.994
Well, I'm flattered that you say so.

00:20:19.274 --> 00:20:24.434
As I said, I'm really trying to explain it to myself, to make it understandable to myself.

00:20:25.194 --> 00:20:29.994
And, of course, by doing that, you can hopefully also make it understandable to others.

00:20:31.474 --> 00:20:34.754
I've always admired people who write, Jim Reason in particular,

00:20:34.814 --> 00:20:38.994
who writes really, really well, and I still admire his writing.

00:20:39.914 --> 00:20:42.454
And there are a lot of other people who don't write so well.

00:20:42.554 --> 00:20:48.794
I shan't mention the names here, but I think I've just been lucky that I have

00:20:48.794 --> 00:20:52.674
the ability to write in an understandable way.

00:20:53.714 --> 00:20:56.494
I don't know how it happened, but that's how it is.

00:20:56.494 --> 00:21:00.234
But to come back to your question, there is

00:21:00.234 --> 00:21:11.254
a famous samurai in Japan called Miyamoto Musashi in the 17th century and was

00:21:11.254 --> 00:21:20.194
sort of the undisputed master and ended his life peacefully as a Zen philosopher, a Zen monk.

00:21:20.194 --> 00:21:25.354
And he wrote a book which has been translated into English, it's quite famous,

00:21:25.474 --> 00:21:30.414
it's called The Book of Five Rings, and it's been used on Wall Street as sort

00:21:30.414 --> 00:21:31.934
of a management Bible also.

00:21:31.934 --> 00:21:40.034
But he made some observations about what you need to do to be able to be successful

00:21:40.034 --> 00:21:44.474
in his case as in the thought fight, but in general also.

00:21:44.614 --> 00:21:50.434
And one of the advices he gives is to perceive the things that cannot be seen.

00:21:51.444 --> 00:21:54.204
And I think that's what I think a good manager should do.

00:21:54.464 --> 00:21:57.924
He should perceive the things that cannot be seen, that is the things that are

00:21:57.924 --> 00:22:03.784
not obvious or do not attract attention by themselves, but which are still there,

00:22:03.944 --> 00:22:07.624
which is sort of hidden in the background because they can be very, very important.

00:22:07.804 --> 00:22:09.904
And I think that's a skill you have to learn.

00:22:10.524 --> 00:22:15.764
And again, to come back to the etude, that's an efficiency-thorough trade-off

00:22:15.764 --> 00:22:21.004
because you have to spend some time looking at things that seemingly are unimportant,

00:22:21.004 --> 00:22:24.284
but which actually, in many cases, turn out to be very important.

00:22:24.404 --> 00:22:31.164
So in the long run, the efficiency is reduced by spending time on that.

00:22:31.304 --> 00:22:37.564
But in the short run, the efficiency is reduced because you spend time on being more thorough.

00:22:37.724 --> 00:22:41.604
But in the long run, it actually improves efficiency to do that.

00:22:44.564 --> 00:22:47.704
And I don't like giving advice to people about what they should do.

00:22:48.304 --> 00:22:55.764
But to me, that advice of a musashi to perceive the things that cannot be seen is really important.

00:22:56.124 --> 00:23:01.624
And sort of looking at the things that often stare you in the eye and are so

00:23:01.624 --> 00:23:02.844
obvious that you miss them.

00:23:03.164 --> 00:23:06.424
And you have to sort of question yourself all the time and say,

00:23:06.424 --> 00:23:09.364
what am I really doing here? What am I looking at?

00:23:10.184 --> 00:23:12.324
That's phenomenal. What's your next book going to be about?

00:23:13.275 --> 00:23:16.675
I don't have any firm plans for our next book.

00:23:16.835 --> 00:23:19.795
It may happen, may not happen.

00:23:19.935 --> 00:23:25.155
Well, I mean, yeah, there is a series of books we've been doing on resilient

00:23:25.155 --> 00:23:28.215
healthcare, and that seems to be going on.

00:23:28.355 --> 00:23:34.215
I just completed editing the fourth book, and we are in the process of working on the fifth book.

00:23:34.335 --> 00:23:39.555
But that's sort of a collective effort.

00:23:39.555 --> 00:23:43.875
And perhaps you're asking whether I would do a monograph myself,

00:23:44.115 --> 00:23:53.835
and if time permits and if I can find a way of doing it, maybe what we talked about in the beginning,

00:23:54.175 --> 00:23:57.275
the development of Safety 2,

00:23:57.555 --> 00:24:05.075
sort of getting towards an understanding of how an organization works which

00:24:05.075 --> 00:24:08.815
is not tied up to specific issues or criteria,

00:24:08.975 --> 00:24:14.715
sort of safety and quality and efficiency, but it looks at the whole in another way.

00:24:14.895 --> 00:24:20.735
That's why I like the term that I use safety synthesis because I think I don't

00:24:20.735 --> 00:24:25.315
like safety so much now, but I like synthesis because I think it's the synthesis

00:24:25.315 --> 00:24:29.435
that we need to achieve and we need to understand, we need to work at.

00:24:29.815 --> 00:24:33.695
So maybe something along those lines. Who knows?

00:24:34.255 --> 00:24:39.455
I think you're right. I think safety as a term is probably carried about as

00:24:39.455 --> 00:24:44.495
much water as it can carry and is no longer really no longer aligns with the

00:24:44.495 --> 00:24:48.235
way that we currently think about sort of reliable operations or reliable systems.

00:24:48.735 --> 00:24:52.735
Why do you think healthcare is so slow to come around to the new view?

00:24:55.512 --> 00:25:01.312
Well, I don't know why. I mean, are they slowing coming around to this issue?

00:25:01.752 --> 00:25:07.952
I think healthcare has always been about being careful and making sure that

00:25:07.952 --> 00:25:09.552
nothing happens to patients.

00:25:09.872 --> 00:25:11.812
That's a part of the Hippocratic Oath.

00:25:12.272 --> 00:25:15.272
First of all, do no harm. That's what it says.

00:25:15.612 --> 00:25:20.932
So that's 2,000 years old, so you can't really say that's slow. Okay, fair enough.

00:25:22.352 --> 00:25:25.792
But then I think healthcare has

00:25:25.792 --> 00:25:31.432
been a system that worked under its own conditions for a long, long time.

00:25:31.712 --> 00:25:39.592
And then only maybe about 50, 60 years ago, it started to be more tightly coupled

00:25:39.592 --> 00:25:41.192
to other aspects of society.

00:25:41.352 --> 00:25:49.172
And it started to get the focus of society and authorities also because it started

00:25:49.172 --> 00:25:52.112
to become more and more expensive. and then people are more and more concerned.

00:25:52.392 --> 00:25:57.612
And then the pressure came on the Institute of Medicine report to errors human

00:25:57.612 --> 00:25:59.632
and stuff like that. And then the pressure was there.

00:25:59.752 --> 00:26:04.612
And then as in every other industry, when the pressure suddenly comes on,

00:26:04.752 --> 00:26:09.092
like nuclear after TMI, like aviation and a number of cases,

00:26:09.812 --> 00:26:14.332
they sort of rush around like crazy and look for solutions wherever they can

00:26:14.332 --> 00:26:18.592
and they borrow solutions from others and apply them.

00:26:18.592 --> 00:26:22.832
And usually they don't work because they're not designed for that specific purpose.

00:26:23.052 --> 00:26:29.372
So healthcare is in that situation now, but I think it's partly because of the

00:26:29.372 --> 00:26:32.652
external pressure that came for any number of reasons.

00:26:33.404 --> 00:26:36.724
I find that really interesting, this idea that they borrow solutions from other

00:26:36.724 --> 00:26:40.064
industries and they don't work because they're not designed to work in that industry.

00:26:40.504 --> 00:26:43.684
That's actually a really good example, at least in the United States,

00:26:44.404 --> 00:26:46.764
of kind of where healthcare currently is around.

00:26:47.024 --> 00:26:50.784
I mean, but their failure rates is quite remarkable. I mean,

00:26:50.884 --> 00:26:54.884
it's hard to imagine the system getting worse.

00:26:55.604 --> 00:27:00.384
Yeah, well, yeah. But again, the thing is wrong to talk about the failure rate,

00:27:00.384 --> 00:27:05.844
because you realize what they are facing an incredibly complex situation.

00:27:06.304 --> 00:27:12.104
And very often they compare themselves and others compare healthcare with aviation,

00:27:12.104 --> 00:27:15.024
but that's really unfair because,

00:27:15.844 --> 00:27:20.104
I mean, if every patient was standardized the same way that aircraft are,

00:27:20.624 --> 00:27:24.084
then, of course, it would be a lot better in healthcare, but they aren't.

00:27:24.184 --> 00:27:27.364
And we tend to look at aviation and say, look at it, it's great.

00:27:27.364 --> 00:27:34.364
It's the probability of a facility is 1 in 7 million and 1 in 14 million, whatever.

00:27:35.524 --> 00:27:41.904
But if you look at the statistics for damage or misdirected luggage,

00:27:42.364 --> 00:27:46.944
it's 1 in 350, which is much closer to what hospitals are.

00:27:47.364 --> 00:27:50.844
So it depends on which kind of numbers you look at.

00:27:51.644 --> 00:27:55.584
I'm not saying healthcare couldn't do better. that could do a lot better.

00:27:55.724 --> 00:28:01.124
But you also need to understand how incredibly complex the situation is and how completely.

00:28:02.355 --> 00:28:06.235
How constrained it is in terms of resources and demands.

00:28:06.555 --> 00:28:13.315
And what they experience is an onslaught of new technology constantly,

00:28:13.315 --> 00:28:17.335
which means they never have time to learn and to get the system to work.

00:28:17.435 --> 00:28:19.915
They never reach an equilibrium. They're always disturbed.

00:28:20.335 --> 00:28:24.375
Whereas most other industries, certain aviation, reach an equilibrium state.

00:28:24.575 --> 00:28:26.715
And then there's a new technology in healthcare.

00:28:27.115 --> 00:28:31.815
It's sort of not daily, but weekly, monthly. Things change all the time.

00:28:32.355 --> 00:28:35.555
And you never have a chance to learn. And you can never become,

00:28:35.815 --> 00:28:39.755
start really to work on reducing the number of things that go wrong.

00:28:43.935 --> 00:28:47.255
What'd you think? Wasn't that great? It was really a great conversation.

00:28:47.815 --> 00:28:52.335
And I thank him so much. I really appreciate him taking the time to do this.

00:28:52.455 --> 00:28:55.015
And it really is something he doesn't have to do for sure.

00:28:55.255 --> 00:29:00.415
And nor does he see himself as kind of a podcast or video kind of person.

00:29:00.415 --> 00:29:04.655
But I just think this opportunity was worth its weight in gold.

00:29:04.935 --> 00:29:12.875
And I want to especially thank Eric and Chevron for supporting him on his journey

00:29:12.875 --> 00:29:16.295
over here and for allowing me some time to sort of take him away.

00:29:16.755 --> 00:29:21.935
And everybody else that was involved with this adventure, it was completely

00:29:21.935 --> 00:29:23.815
worth it. But mostly I want to thank you.

00:29:24.295 --> 00:29:28.015
Thanks for listening. Thanks for tuning in. The numbers are kind of nutty.

00:29:28.315 --> 00:29:31.855
And I can't do it without you. That's for sure. Tell your friends.

00:29:32.075 --> 00:29:34.435
Subscribe. That seems to make some kind of weird difference.

00:29:34.875 --> 00:29:37.735
Write a review. This is an Eric Hollenegel podcast. Where else are you going

00:29:37.735 --> 00:29:40.175
to find that? Just saying. That's all I'm doing is just saying.

00:29:40.495 --> 00:29:45.495
But until then, learn something new every single day. And I'll bet you did today.

00:29:45.735 --> 00:29:48.575
I'll bet you a nickel you did today. Have as much fun as you possibly can.

00:29:48.575 --> 00:29:50.835
And for goodness sakes, be safe.

00:29:50.800 --> 00:30:01.198
Music.