PAPod 523 - Building Bridges: Redefining Worker Engagement and Mental Health in Construction

WEBVTT 00:00:00.017 --> 00:00:04.777 Your five principles is on my bedside locker because I'm a saddle. 00:00:06.457 --> 00:00:08.497 You need to get a hobby. 00:00:12.797 --> 00:00:21.417 You kindly signed my copy of Five Principles. 00:00:21.817 --> 00:00:28.017 And on the inside cover, you wrote, to be read in the toilet only.

Oh, my God. 00:00:26.960 --> 00:00:40.720 Music. 00:00:39.437 --> 00:00:42.017 Hey everybody, welcome to the Pre-Accident Investigation Podcast. 00:00:42.497 --> 00:00:44.437 I'm Todd Conklin.

How are you? 00:00:45.157 --> 00:00:49.577 Is everything grand? As grand as can be. That's what I mean.

00:00:49.757 --> 00:00:52.437 So it's time for another podcast. 00:00:52.797 --> 00:00:57.097 How have you enjoyed what we've talked about so far? I just arranged kind of 00:00:57.097 --> 00:00:59.517 a fancy pants podcast that's coming up soon. 00:01:00.017 --> 00:01:05.017 So that's interesting.

But how are you hanging in? Because it's kind of an interesting 00:01:05.017 --> 00:01:07.137 question to ask how you're hanging in right now. 00:01:07.277 --> 00:01:12.537 Because it's a crazy time and we're heading towards craziness. 00:01:13.037 --> 00:01:14.357 More craziness.

00:01:15.477 --> 00:01:19.917 More craziness. It's getting crazier. Yeah, that's what I wanted to say. 00:01:20.617 --> 00:01:27.177 Plus there's all the, you know, we're kind of swinging into traditionally kind 00:01:27.177 --> 00:01:29.097 of the season where stress is higher.

00:01:29.737 --> 00:01:32.997 There's lots of things going on lots 00:01:32.997 --> 00:01:39.377 of excitement and you know it just uh life just keeps just keeps doling it out 00:01:39.377 --> 00:01:45.937 baby whether you want it or not it's it's it gives it to us whether you're ready 00:01:45.937 --> 00:01:51.137 for it or not is maybe the better question it gives us to us things are grand here you know No, 00:01:51.277 --> 00:01:57.177 it's fall in New Mexico, and it snowed like crazy last week. 00:01:57.377 --> 00:01:59.257 I mean, like a couple feet. 00:01:59.577 --> 00:02:03.937 It was a lot of snow. I mean, it was a lot of snow for November.

00:02:04.397 --> 00:02:06.997 It seemed like it was okay, and everybody kind of lived through it. 00:02:07.077 --> 00:02:10.177 Although these big storms like this, especially these early big storms, 00:02:10.457 --> 00:02:15.837 what those are invented to do is to identify leaks in roofs. 00:02:16.855 --> 00:02:19.895 Because you cannot believe the amount of roofers that are everywhere. 00:02:20.195 --> 00:02:23.315 Everywhere I look, there's somebody climbing on a roof fixing something.

00:02:23.935 --> 00:02:31.075 So, and that, from a safety and reliability standpoint, is always an interesting thing to watch. 00:02:31.395 --> 00:02:37.755 Because, you know, it's high-risk work because there's a potential you can fall. 00:02:37.755 --> 00:02:40.415 Or maybe better, I should say, the potential you can land hard. 00:02:40.835 --> 00:02:45.875 But there's lots of pressure.

And it's always an interesting thing to kind of 00:02:45.875 --> 00:02:49.815 watch happen. And I'm sure you're doing the same thing, but you really see it 00:02:49.815 --> 00:02:52.235 after a big, wet, heavy snowfall. 00:02:52.535 --> 00:02:56.435 You know, the kind of snowfall that comes in and breaks all the tree branches. 00:02:56.435 --> 00:03:01.915 If you're not an expert in snow, what happens is if it snows early before the 00:03:01.915 --> 00:03:05.575 trees have lost all their leaves and it's a really heavy, wet snow, 00:03:05.775 --> 00:03:09.595 which is great for like snowmen or snowballs.

00:03:09.835 --> 00:03:12.575 I mean, it's perfect for that. it's also 00:03:12.575 --> 00:03:15.295 perfectly aligned to break trees down and 00:03:15.295 --> 00:03:18.455 branches off and stuff so that means you've got power loss 00:03:18.455 --> 00:03:22.215 it's the whole it's the whole rigmarole it's very 00:03:22.215 --> 00:03:25.235 exciting but anyway that's going on and as 00:03:25.235 --> 00:03:31.215 far as i'm going geez man i got nothing but positive vibes to send into the 00:03:31.215 --> 00:03:37.775 world right now it's it seems like life is is pretty good i mean you know i'm 00:03:37.775 --> 00:03:44.215 just i just i'm trying I think what I've recently been spending a ton of time on, 00:03:44.355 --> 00:03:47.095 I'm working on a new project. 00:03:47.095 --> 00:03:49.815 In fact, next week is big project week for me. 00:03:50.095 --> 00:03:54.635 So I should have either great reports from the new project or, 00:03:54.635 --> 00:04:00.555 you know, horrible failure reports, which aren't bad because then that tells 00:04:00.555 --> 00:04:02.215 you to stop working on the new project.

00:04:02.675 --> 00:04:05.975 But other than that, life is life is pretty grand. 00:04:06.135 --> 00:04:13.295 I mean, it's a it's a it's a great thing. So today is an interesting pod, for sure. 00:04:13.995 --> 00:04:18.995 Maybe we should just jump into the pod, and that would be kind of a better way 00:04:18.995 --> 00:04:20.315 to do it.

So let me just do this. 00:04:20.395 --> 00:04:24.295 Let's jump into the pod and talk about what I want to talk about today. 00:04:24.315 --> 00:04:27.835 Because it's been a topic we've broached a couple times. 00:04:28.435 --> 00:04:31.735 It's certainly an important and serious topic.

00:04:32.075 --> 00:04:37.255 I wouldn't say it's a terribly fun topic. But I think the potential solution 00:04:37.255 --> 00:04:43.395 can be really rewarding and pretty satisfying, and it sort of keeps appearing in front of me. 00:04:43.535 --> 00:04:46.335 So without any further ado, sit back and relax. 00:04:46.515 --> 00:04:49.435 We're going to have a conversation or two.

In fact... 00:04:50.398 --> 00:04:56.338 We're going to get to cross the ocean today and talk to Alan Palmer. 00:04:56.678 --> 00:05:00.498 And if you don't know who Alan Palmer is, he works for an organization called JMJ. 00:05:00.758 --> 00:05:06.298 And you might have heard of JMJ, but Alan and I were on a call this week, 00:05:06.398 --> 00:05:09.278 actually, and this topic broached.

00:05:09.558 --> 00:05:13.378 And Alan's always super fun to talk to because he's a really nice guy. He lives in Dublin. 00:05:13.798 --> 00:05:18.458 So extra points right there. I mean, you know, at any moment of time, 00:05:18.658 --> 00:05:23.318 at any moment of time, YouTube could break out and I'm always kind of ready for it to happen.

00:05:23.858 --> 00:05:31.398 But we were talking about a project we're working on and this topic came up. 00:05:31.838 --> 00:05:37.638 So without much more fanfare, let's have a conversation. 00:05:42.078 --> 00:05:45.338 So alan and i were on this call and we were chatting away and he was kind of 00:05:45.338 --> 00:05:50.438 statusing me up on what's new and different and it's really funny because when 00:05:50.438 --> 00:05:54.938 you talk to these guys who do lots of safety work around the globe and that's 00:05:54.938 --> 00:05:56.918 you i mean we're i'm talking about us right, 00:05:57.398 --> 00:06:02.098 and you just kind of i don't know you just kind of chat about what's what's going on and what 00:06:02.178 --> 00:06:05.418 direction you see things are moving and what's interesting what 00:06:05.418 --> 00:06:08.498 what data do you see or 00:06:08.498 --> 00:06:11.218 feel out there that could be something we should be watching for that 00:06:11.218 --> 00:06:16.618 kind of normal sort of conversation and alan was telling me that it's really 00:06:16.618 --> 00:06:23.478 interesting that there's a lot of clients now moving towards tapping expertise 00:06:23.478 --> 00:06:27.738 from different places so it's it's sort of an indicator and you're seeing this 00:06:27.738 --> 00:06:29.478 everywhere, I bet you guys see it as well, 00:06:30.038 --> 00:06:35.358 is where once this was classic management knows what to do to fix this problem. 00:06:35.778 --> 00:06:40.298 And therefore we will dictate a solution to the workforce.

00:06:40.818 --> 00:06:45.018 And then the workforce's job is to be obedient. That's always hard to say, 00:06:45.138 --> 00:06:48.718 be obedient and do what it is management thinks they ought to be doing. 00:06:49.238 --> 00:06:52.358 And you know, I get, we can make a case. I mean, there's cases, 00:06:52.578 --> 00:06:56.478 we can make a lot of cases that there's good and bad to this, for sure.

00:06:57.018 --> 00:07:02.118 But I would suggest that's taken us kind of to places where we are now. 00:07:02.498 --> 00:07:06.538 I mean, it's sort of our origin story, for sure. But I'm not sure it's going 00:07:06.538 --> 00:07:11.198 to take us to places where we need to be or where we want to be or where we should be. 00:07:11.895 --> 00:07:17.175 And so it's sort of a classic conversation.

You've had it a million times. This is not so unusual. 00:07:17.375 --> 00:07:21.675 And so that's kind of where this jumps in. 00:07:21.815 --> 00:07:28.115 Because to be really honest with you guys, this didn't start out as a podcast at all, not even close.

00:07:28.515 --> 00:07:31.875 This was a work call. We were talking about work stuff. 00:07:33.955 --> 00:07:38.455 And I didn't even think this would happen. And so what you're going to hear 00:07:38.455 --> 00:07:41.155 is I'm going to just kind of reach over and turn on record.

00:07:41.895 --> 00:07:44.975 Because you can do that now. It's pretty easy to do. In fact, 00:07:45.115 --> 00:07:48.855 I bet people do it all the time. But you can kind of reach over and turn on record.

00:07:49.095 --> 00:07:53.715 And I started to capture what Alan was talking about because I thought he was 00:07:53.715 --> 00:08:00.515 going to go in a direction that was going to really build on this ability to 00:08:00.515 --> 00:08:05.695 do better operational learning and how they were getting data from field workers. 00:08:06.255 --> 00:08:11.715 Maybe he was going to talk about the worker as an expert. I knew it was going 00:08:11.715 --> 00:08:17.355 to lead to some conversation that was positive because it was all set up to be positive. 00:08:17.555 --> 00:08:22.635 So what you're about to hear is I'm just going to clip on the microphone kind 00:08:22.635 --> 00:08:27.735 of mid-sentence and Alan's going to talk about engaging workers.

00:08:28.295 --> 00:08:31.715 What's interesting about this is where it goes. 00:08:32.495 --> 00:08:37.215 And so that's the part that I think is most interesting for us. 00:08:37.215 --> 00:08:40.775 And it's definitely something we should be talking about. 00:08:40.955 --> 00:08:44.995 So here's Alan mid-sentence talking about engaging workers.

00:08:44.995 --> 00:08:48.795 You know, we've got clients who are we've got clients who are pulling for, 00:08:48.795 --> 00:08:55.695 you know, better integration such that such that we listen more to the front 00:08:55.695 --> 00:08:58.895 line and have the front line say what the procedures should say. 00:08:59.455 --> 00:09:04.695 Yeah, it's like, hey, man, you know, they're they're they're now we're noticing 00:09:04.695 --> 00:09:07.735 clients pulling for that quite, quite a bit. 00:09:08.075 --> 00:09:10.275 Oh, that's great. That's so good.

00:09:11.815 --> 00:09:16.615 Mental mental well-being is a is a huge thing of course since the since the 00:09:16.615 --> 00:09:22.035 lockdowns yeah yeah yeah and probably should should have always been i mean 00:09:22.035 --> 00:09:26.075 thank goodness we should have moving into that so that's good yeah yeah, 00:09:27.145 --> 00:09:33.585 so you know we we did a thing in we did a thing in qatar was it last year no earlier this year, 00:09:34.185 --> 00:09:37.345 earlier this year uh we did a short 00:09:37.345 --> 00:09:40.585 development program for people from 00:09:40.585 --> 00:09:43.825 the field on major capital projects in 00:09:43.825 --> 00:09:46.825 raslafan city we called 00:09:46.825 --> 00:09:50.165 it village heroes and it's basically a 00:09:50.165 --> 00:09:54.465 group of people who volunteer to listen 00:09:54.465 --> 00:09:57.585 out for and be to be 00:09:57.585 --> 00:10:00.485 a listening ear for people who who have something 00:10:00.485 --> 00:10:03.705 they want to talk about oh that's so good and they're 00:10:03.705 --> 00:10:06.645 and they're what they're what they're 00:10:06.645 --> 00:10:10.185 trained in is one listening 00:10:10.185 --> 00:10:13.545 skills and two being able 00:10:13.545 --> 00:10:16.285 to notice oh oh i got what 00:10:16.285 --> 00:10:19.105 you're telling me could I suggest that you talk to 00:10:19.105 --> 00:10:21.945 this person or that's so good that's how about 00:10:21.945 --> 00:10:25.845 if I get you appointment for tomorrow because it sounds to me like you could 00:10:25.845 --> 00:10:31.605 do a talking to someone that sounds and it's so impressed by that it's all about 00:10:31.605 --> 00:10:38.165 getting out it's really about getting out ahead of suicide yeah yeah so my organization 00:10:38.165 --> 00:10:40.445 I work with a bunch one of my favorite organizations. 00:10:41.265 --> 00:10:44.305 Rassfield gory they just started up 00:10:44.305 --> 00:10:47.605 well just as wrong they've had a program they call 00:10:47.605 --> 00:10:51.105 it professional development coordinator but 00:10:51.105 --> 00:10:53.965 what they hired were chaplains right they 00:10:53.965 --> 00:10:57.485 now have they now have 14 of them wow and 00:10:57.485 --> 00:11:00.285 same thing it's it's just like your village hero it's been 00:11:00.285 --> 00:11:03.885 incredibly successful one of their professional development 00:11:03.885 --> 00:11:07.785 coordinators has performed which 00:11:07.785 --> 00:11:10.865 this is pretty amazing in the past four years 00:11:10.865 --> 00:11:15.065 like 14 company weddings but 00:11:15.065 --> 00:11:17.945 what they've well yeah 14 but what they've seen 00:11:17.945 --> 00:11:21.305 is this is saying it's just like your program it's so brilliant i'm 00:11:21.305 --> 00:11:24.605 so proud of you guys for doing that we probably 00:11:24.605 --> 00:11:27.725 can't do that enough unfortunately the downside 00:11:27.725 --> 00:11:31.145 to that is little companies don't have 00:11:31.145 --> 00:11:34.005 the luxury of having a village hero 00:11:34.005 --> 00:11:37.425 i mean they they probably have a village hero but but 00:11:37.425 --> 00:11:40.665 like in brassfield gory it's their job that's their 00:11:40.665 --> 00:11:43.645 whole job what a great program oh 00:11:43.645 --> 00:11:48.225 i'm so impressed by you have you thought about maybe writing that into a book 00:11:48.225 --> 00:11:55.505 he says he says kind of pointedly poking him with eyeball knives at you through 00:11:55.505 --> 00:12:01.445 the screen wouldn't that be a wouldn't that be a great book it would be it, 00:12:02.285 --> 00:12:05.685 And wouldn't you be the great person to write that great book? 00:12:05.925 --> 00:12:08.885 I could certainly be involved in it. 00:12:10.429 --> 00:12:16.629 Yeah, it's something where it's something we're gathering information on and 00:12:16.629 --> 00:12:24.649 gathering anecdotes about the impact of it, because there's definitely a compelling case study.

00:12:25.109 --> 00:12:29.929 And it could well turn into or take the form of a book, but there's definitely 00:12:29.929 --> 00:12:33.509 an interesting case study to be had out of it. 00:12:33.509 --> 00:12:39.569 I mean, there's one story where a guy who was on the training, 00:12:39.829 --> 00:12:41.849 and this is like a three-day training. 00:12:42.049 --> 00:12:44.229 It's not like a degree. 00:12:44.789 --> 00:12:54.669 It's a three-day training where they learn the kind of human default around 00:12:54.669 --> 00:12:56.729 listening, which is not.

00:12:57.209 --> 00:13:02.949 And then how to proactively switch into actually listening and tuning into another person. 00:13:02.949 --> 00:13:08.749 So they practice that in the training that they, they discuss the value of that 00:13:08.749 --> 00:13:13.849 and then, and then, and then they get distinctions around psychological safety, 00:13:14.309 --> 00:13:17.709 mental wellbeing and mental health. 00:13:18.309 --> 00:13:20.749 Like, like, like three different things. 00:13:21.564 --> 00:13:25.924 Three clear distinctions.

So mental health needs a particular kind of treatment. 00:13:26.584 --> 00:13:31.924 Mental psychological safety is creating an environment where people feel it's 00:13:31.924 --> 00:13:34.824 okay to say what they have to say, whatever that might be. 00:13:35.784 --> 00:13:39.964 And these guys are getting the nuance of that stuff. 00:13:41.104 --> 00:13:44.984 And then they've got a whole lot of phone numbers 00:13:44.984 --> 00:13:50.884 and email addresses where they know they can reach out for help beyond themselves 00:13:50.884 --> 00:13:56.144 that they've got someone who needs something more a chat over a cup of tea yeah 00:13:56.144 --> 00:14:02.704 yeah yeah so so one guy one guy wrote back to the team who trained them.

00:14:03.364 --> 00:14:06.404 24 hours after the end of the training and he 00:14:06.404 --> 00:14:09.404 said i've i've already made a difference with this 00:14:09.404 --> 00:14:12.884 he said i was in the canteen i was 00:14:12.884 --> 00:14:15.584 chatting to somebody and he said he was 00:14:15.584 --> 00:14:18.664 very concerned because he hadn't been paid in three months 00:14:18.664 --> 00:14:21.724 and and he said in in 00:14:21.724 --> 00:14:24.684 less than six hours by having the list 00:14:24.684 --> 00:14:27.524 of numbers i had and having the people i knew had 00:14:27.524 --> 00:14:30.284 our backs in this endeavor i was 00:14:30.284 --> 00:14:33.044 able to get the thing sorted in six hours he got all his 00:14:33.044 --> 00:14:36.704 all of his money paid to him in one way one amount that's 00:14:36.704 --> 00:14:39.404 amazing just brilliant you know and and 00:14:39.404 --> 00:14:42.724 then there are other people who have referred guys on 00:14:42.724 --> 00:14:46.844 that they were worried about and they've spoken to professionals and 00:14:46.844 --> 00:14:50.444 gotten great help and they're in a much better condition than 00:14:50.444 --> 00:14:54.024 they were just just fabulous stuff going on i'm so 00:14:54.024 --> 00:14:57.104 proud of you that that is such i 00:14:57.104 --> 00:15:01.084 mean you've always done important work that's never been your problem you've 00:15:01.084 --> 00:15:05.724 never had you've never not done important work but it sounds to me like now 00:15:05.724 --> 00:15:10.144 you're doing the most important work you've ever done yeah it's it's a it's 00:15:10.144 --> 00:15:15.304 at a it's at a it's at another level entirely of kind of humanizing the workplace. 00:15:16.920 --> 00:15:24.260 So anyway, there's lots of good stuff getting created, lots of good stuff going on. 00:15:24.360 --> 00:15:32.760 I'd love to just keep checking in with you and let you know what we've got going on, what's shaping up. 00:15:33.040 --> 00:15:39.540 And then he goes on to talk about how we can contact and work details.

00:15:39.740 --> 00:15:44.320 So I stopped that conversation snippet right there. Now, I should tell you, 00:15:44.440 --> 00:15:51.440 before we go one little step further, I absolutely asked Alan if we could use this in the podcast. 00:15:51.900 --> 00:15:55.560 This is not some like secret recording without his permission. 00:15:55.780 --> 00:16:01.020 I mean, we definitely talked about it.

And there's really no question about 00:16:01.020 --> 00:16:06.760 allowing people to have this conversation because it's such a serious conversation. 00:16:06.760 --> 00:16:10.620 And if you've not really thought about it a bunch, 00:16:10.860 --> 00:16:15.060 one of the challenges we have, and it's a pretty interesting challenge, 00:16:15.280 --> 00:16:18.980 is that according to the Center for Disease Control in the United States, 00:16:19.000 --> 00:16:22.420 which is kind of an important data collection point for us, 00:16:22.520 --> 00:16:27.680 it's a central agency that sort of collects data and is able to really look 00:16:27.680 --> 00:16:30.300 at that data over time. So it's trendable. 00:16:30.460 --> 00:16:35.000 It's what happens.

construction workers really 00:16:35.000 --> 00:16:38.280 are committing suicide at a rate about 75 00:16:38.280 --> 00:16:42.160 percent higher than the general population so and 00:16:42.160 --> 00:16:44.840 to put that into real numbers which is kind of what we ought 00:16:44.840 --> 00:16:52.840 to be doing in 2022 6 000 construction workers killed themselves what's shocking 00:16:52.840 --> 00:17:04.440 to me is that numbers trending in the 2023 data to be right about the same number, which makes me think, 00:17:04.720 --> 00:17:10.580 if one were thinking out loud, that you could probably see it trending at that 00:17:10.580 --> 00:17:11.640 same number for this year. 00:17:12.140 --> 00:17:18.040 And what's interesting about this, and it's really interesting to me at a bunch 00:17:18.040 --> 00:17:20.800 of levels is this is a crisis. 00:17:21.440 --> 00:17:27.500 And this is a crisis that does two things for us. One is it calls us to action.

Absolutely. 00:17:27.940 --> 00:17:32.540 I mean, that's why we're in this podcast. That's why the last conference we 00:17:32.540 --> 00:17:35.880 did, the Santa Fe conference we did a couple of months ago, we spent almost 00:17:35.880 --> 00:17:37.940 an entire day talking about this topic. 00:17:38.984 --> 00:17:43.324 But it also, I think, challenges us as professionals who look at resilience 00:17:43.324 --> 00:17:49.524 and reliability in the workplace to expand our horizons sort of past classic 00:17:49.524 --> 00:17:51.264 ankle sprains and hurt elbows.

00:17:51.904 --> 00:17:55.924 But what's more significant, at least to our discussion, I mean, 00:17:56.104 --> 00:18:00.644 when we hang out on the pod, is that there are some organizations out there 00:18:00.644 --> 00:18:02.424 that are doing some stuff. 00:18:02.764 --> 00:18:08.704 And you definitely heard Alan talk about what they're doing with the Village Hero Program. 00:18:08.984 --> 00:18:11.904 Or what Troy and the guys at Brassfield 00:18:11.904 --> 00:18:15.844 Gory are doing with their personal development managers program. 00:18:16.404 --> 00:18:21.204 But what I think we ought to be talking about as, as a professional sort of 00:18:21.204 --> 00:18:27.524 group of people is exactly the challenge Alan gave us in kind of right before 00:18:27.524 --> 00:18:30.864 I cut him off, before he started talking about boring work crap again.

00:18:31.224 --> 00:18:37.344 Right. And that is how do we bridge into looking at that whole person and a 00:18:37.344 --> 00:18:42.904 more holistic approach to understanding really the role workers play in the workplace. 00:18:43.244 --> 00:18:47.904 And my guess is, and I could be really wrong on this, I'm wrong on a ton of stuff. 00:18:48.544 --> 00:18:54.024 But my guess is, is that that holistic approach, which we've been toying with, 00:18:54.644 --> 00:18:58.384 looking at sort of safety in a different way for a lot of years.

00:18:58.584 --> 00:19:02.304 I mean, one of the things, I don't know if you guys think about this very much, 00:19:02.424 --> 00:19:06.784 but one of the things we say, which is just as common as the nose on our face, 00:19:06.924 --> 00:19:10.884 which is that the worker's not the problem, the worker's the problem solver. 00:19:11.780 --> 00:19:16.960 You know, that's a huge shift in how organizations perceive the workforce. 00:19:17.260 --> 00:19:22.100 I mean, if you really press me, it's kind of controversial. 00:19:22.200 --> 00:19:26.440 It's a giant shift in how thinking has changed.

00:19:26.740 --> 00:19:32.880 But what it really, I think, challenges us to do is to take that approach where 00:19:32.880 --> 00:19:35.380 we look at really the socio-technical, 00:19:35.520 --> 00:19:40.520 the place where the work meets the worker, and we expand it holistically to 00:19:40.520 --> 00:19:44.300 understand the context in which work happens, 00:19:44.300 --> 00:19:50.880 I think it makes perfect sense that a part of that discussion would be how people 00:19:50.880 --> 00:19:53.940 feel about the work, the workplace, 00:19:54.160 --> 00:19:56.460 their coworkers, and eventually themselves. 00:19:56.740 --> 00:20:03.600 Now, I would suggest we can't solve mental health problems because we're not 00:20:03.600 --> 00:20:04.820 mental health professionals. 00:20:05.340 --> 00:20:11.800 I mean, that's not what we do. But we are at a position where we can intervene 00:20:11.800 --> 00:20:13.920 on something happening.

00:20:14.100 --> 00:20:18.640 And those are the stories you hear, is that suicide numbers are really high, 00:20:18.760 --> 00:20:20.640 and they're really high among construction workers. 00:20:20.800 --> 00:20:24.480 So that's our sample group. That's the group we're looking at. 00:20:24.480 --> 00:20:33.240 What's amazing is that when you hear stories of how a person was rescued from 00:20:33.240 --> 00:20:37.400 some pretty deep and profoundly depressing thoughts, 00:20:37.640 --> 00:20:46.220 they were rescued by a culture, by the organization's context that really intervened 00:20:46.220 --> 00:20:47.480 before something bad happened.

00:20:47.480 --> 00:20:52.620 So suddenly the Village Hero Program or the Personal Development Program, 00:20:53.100 --> 00:20:58.720 that program of having somebody to talk to who is available and can connect 00:20:58.720 --> 00:21:04.980 with resources effectively, that's the key word, that becomes quite a big intervention. 00:21:04.980 --> 00:21:10.960 And I guess it's kind of like having a suicide prevention hotline working next to you. 00:21:11.220 --> 00:21:16.160 But I would think that that's kind of overly simplified, that what it really 00:21:16.160 --> 00:21:20.460 is doing is expanding the way we think about work, 00:21:20.800 --> 00:21:28.160 mental health, and the whole person across the whole entire culture of work. 00:21:28.920 --> 00:21:33.840 And that idea that we're looking at and understanding the culture of work, 00:21:34.180 --> 00:21:36.980 well, that's been a part of our conversation for years.

00:21:37.240 --> 00:21:39.580 I mean, you and I have been having this conversation for years. 00:21:40.240 --> 00:21:46.940 We've only had it around things like workplace safety and reliability, high-risk operations. 00:21:47.180 --> 00:21:49.660 I mean, those are important things, no question about it. 00:21:50.040 --> 00:21:54.600 But what I would challenge us, and this is as big a challenge for me as it is 00:21:54.600 --> 00:21:59.280 for you, is what does that mean for what happens next?

00:22:00.410 --> 00:22:04.150 And that's why when Alan sort of went into this conversation, 00:22:04.150 --> 00:22:06.270 which I didn't think was going to happen. 00:22:06.410 --> 00:22:11.670 I mean, I just I thought we were going to talk about the changing way we talk about workers. 00:22:11.830 --> 00:22:15.710 And really what I thought Alan was going to talk about is how they're reaching, 00:22:15.890 --> 00:22:20.170 even in these big, giant clients that they have, they're reaching down to the 00:22:20.170 --> 00:22:25.310 workforce level to actually solve problems and identify issues. 00:22:25.530 --> 00:22:30.210 I should have said that in the other order, identify issues and solve problems.

There we go. 00:22:30.410 --> 00:22:35.890 It ended up being a discussion around this Village Heroes program and how effective 00:22:35.890 --> 00:22:41.110 it is, which is kind of the same thing Troy at Brassfield and Gorey did as well. 00:22:41.230 --> 00:22:46.770 He started talking about this program, not really knowing that what he was saying 00:22:46.770 --> 00:22:49.410 was kind of earth shattering and super interesting. 00:22:49.890 --> 00:22:52.430 It was just something they felt like they had to do.

00:22:52.950 --> 00:22:58.250 And that, I think, becomes a really important part of the conversations that 00:22:58.250 --> 00:23:00.270 we should be having next. Now, I don't have an answer. 00:23:00.770 --> 00:23:07.130 Let me take that back. I think we're starting to see some organizations develop 00:23:07.130 --> 00:23:15.010 in the field some pretty interesting and kind of effective knock on wood interventions for this problem.

00:23:15.170 --> 00:23:19.950 And that's how we're going to reduce the number of suicides amongst workers 00:23:19.950 --> 00:23:24.090 is we're going to intervene and somebody is going to have to do something. 00:23:24.090 --> 00:23:25.550 We can't hope it goes away. 00:23:25.830 --> 00:23:30.210 We can't deny it's a problem. We've got to take action.

We have to intervene. 00:23:30.390 --> 00:23:33.950 We have to interrupt what's happening and change it. 00:23:34.130 --> 00:23:38.810 Just the same way we interrupt what's happening with fall protection or we interrupt 00:23:38.810 --> 00:23:40.930 what's happening with hazard identification. 00:23:41.670 --> 00:23:45.610 We're interrupting.

We're intervening and making a difference. 00:23:46.410 --> 00:23:49.490 And what's amazing to me is that 00:23:49.490 --> 00:23:52.310 our peers are these are people that are for these we 00:23:52.310 --> 00:23:55.410 know these people there are for we know what they look we know what their job 00:23:55.410 --> 00:24:02.090 looks like our friends are out there actually doing things and the other thing 00:24:02.090 --> 00:24:06.730 i would add just because i think it's worth adding is that this must mean there 00:24:06.730 --> 00:24:11.910 are many many companies out there in the world that are suffering from loss. 00:24:12.430 --> 00:24:18.230 And so the restorative nature of sort of figuring out what we do when a good 00:24:18.230 --> 00:24:23.270 person removes themselves, not just from the work team or the workforce or the 00:24:23.270 --> 00:24:26.450 organization, but from life, what does that mean? 00:24:26.890 --> 00:24:28.550 And what's our next move?

00:24:29.070 --> 00:24:32.570 I don't know. The one thing I would say, because it's just us talking, 00:24:32.870 --> 00:24:40.150 is I wonder if we start looking at this and start really thinking of these interventions 00:24:40.150 --> 00:24:47.230 as positive and important parts of our responsibility in creating a workplace environment, 00:24:47.570 --> 00:24:54.290 I wonder if we won't also see a reduction in fatalities other than suicide. 00:24:55.648 --> 00:25:00.748 I'm just saying, I don't know. I don't have any data to prove anything, 00:25:00.748 --> 00:25:04.988 but I'm just saying, I wonder how much of this is interconnected.

00:25:06.088 --> 00:25:12.008 If you want to sort of hear my inside thoughts, I'm kind of guessing there's 00:25:12.008 --> 00:25:14.468 going to be a connection, but I could be wrong. 00:25:15.428 --> 00:25:20.648 This is what probably we should be thinking about for a while because it's clearly a problem. 00:25:21.148 --> 00:25:27.168 And I'll be honest with you, it snuck up on me. I didn't even realize it was the problem it was.

00:25:27.608 --> 00:25:31.968 And so I think we have to spend some time and talk to each other. 00:25:32.488 --> 00:25:36.328 And more importantly, I think we have to listen to what organizations that are 00:25:36.328 --> 00:25:41.908 really dealing with this problem are doing to deal with this problem. 00:25:42.668 --> 00:25:45.828 Because that's how we're going to start learning. And that's how we get better.

00:25:45.968 --> 00:25:49.868 That's how we've always gotten better. I mean, that's a big part of what we 00:25:49.868 --> 00:25:54.888 share is the ability to look at these ideas, to think about them, 00:25:55.088 --> 00:26:00.848 to engage peers and friends from around the globe and to see what we can get out of it. 00:26:01.388 --> 00:26:06.208 That's a really important part of what we talk about. And that's kind of why 00:26:06.208 --> 00:26:07.948 I thought this podcast was valuable.

00:26:08.528 --> 00:26:16.828 This was an important conversation to accidentally have and to fortunately have turned the record on. 00:26:17.680 --> 00