PAPod 527 - Navigating Safety in High-Risk Maritime Operations

WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:13.520 Music. 00:00:13.362 --> 00:00:20.202 And welcome to the Pre-Accident Investigation Podcast. I am the host and the 00:00:20.202 --> 00:00:23.702 host, hoster, not hostess, hoster. 00:00:23.922 --> 00:00:28.582 There's gender specific terms for this, isn't there?

Well, anyway, I'm the host. 00:00:28.782 --> 00:00:34.922 My name is Todd Conklin and you're about to join us for another exciting episode 00:00:34.922 --> 00:00:37.902 of the Pre-Accident Podcast. And I think it's going to be great fun. 00:00:38.062 --> 00:00:45.522 It is amazing here because this is truly the best time of the year, if you ask me.

00:00:46.082 --> 00:00:49.322 And it's an interesting year for us. I don't know what it's like for you guys, 00:00:49.342 --> 00:00:54.502 but for us in New Mexico, we're almost not having winter. 00:00:55.042 --> 00:00:59.022 I mean, we've had a little snow, no question about it, a little bit of snow. That's been nice.

00:00:59.242 --> 00:01:07.042 But generally, it's been like, you know, in the 50s Fahrenheit, pretty much every day. 00:01:07.542 --> 00:01:11.202 Today, it was like 44, but I mean, I'm not complaining. I'm rounding up because, 00:01:11.302 --> 00:01:14.082 you know, optimists round up. That's what we do.

00:01:14.462 --> 00:01:19.682 But it's been interesting, which means we're probably going to get socked it to us soon. 00:01:20.082 --> 00:01:24.042 And I'll have to be ready for that. But as I say, I think next year, 00:01:24.122 --> 00:01:26.842 I'm going to try not to talk so much about the weather. I can't believe I talk 00:01:26.842 --> 00:01:27.982 about the weather all the time.

00:01:28.582 --> 00:01:31.902 It's weird. It just feels like something that is important to share, 00:01:32.082 --> 00:01:34.682 but I don't have the vaguest clue why. 00:01:35.222 --> 00:01:38.962 And you probably are tired of it, I'm guessing, because you've got your own 00:01:38.962 --> 00:01:43.022 weather and you could talk about it all you want to, to people who also don't care. 00:01:43.262 --> 00:01:48.142 So, I mean, it's kind of like people who take pictures of food and put it on 00:01:48.142 --> 00:01:50.702 Instagram and stuff.

I mean, it's great. 00:01:51.222 --> 00:01:55.242 Thanks for sharing. I'm not being ungrateful, but I don't know. 00:01:55.562 --> 00:01:57.782 Pictures of food is not the same as food.

00:01:58.122 --> 00:02:02.222 You know, it's like the phrase we think about all the time in the safety world. 00:02:02.482 --> 00:02:07.122 You know, when you're talking about procedures, and I often say the map is not 00:02:07.122 --> 00:02:09.842 the terrain, right? I mean, I didn't say that. 00:02:10.102 --> 00:02:15.422 Great minds before me in many different modalities have said something like 00:02:15.422 --> 00:02:16.802 that.

The map is not the terrain. 00:02:17.342 --> 00:02:22.022 Just like the procedure is not the job, right? I mean, the procedure is the procedure. 00:02:22.262 --> 00:02:26.842 The job is the job.

The map's the map. The terrain, the actual terrain is the actual terrain. 00:02:27.062 --> 00:02:30.282 Well, here we go. The picture of your food is not your food.

00:02:30.682 --> 00:02:36.222 It's very different than the food. It's probably calorically better to look 00:02:36.222 --> 00:02:38.822 at it, but it's way less satisfying. 00:02:39.730 --> 00:02:44.890 Because ultimately, I don't know what you quest for, but I'm always kind of 00:02:44.890 --> 00:02:48.850 looking for some combination of salt and fat. 00:02:49.230 --> 00:02:53.430 I need some combination of salt and fat.

00:02:54.070 --> 00:02:58.130 Tocino is a word I would use. And if you need to look that up, 00:02:58.310 --> 00:03:02.710 it's a really important word and you'll need it for international travel. 00:03:02.950 --> 00:03:07.370 It is the quintessential example of salt and fat. 00:03:07.570 --> 00:03:14.430 So how are things going with you, because it is a busy time in the world, 00:03:14.430 --> 00:03:18.070 for sure, and so much is going on.

00:03:18.430 --> 00:03:23.690 I mean, geopolitically, I've really learned two important lessons, 00:03:24.270 --> 00:03:27.690 probably more, actually. It's been a very teachable moment. 00:03:28.010 --> 00:03:32.330 But in the past several years, I've learned two really important lessons. 00:03:32.730 --> 00:03:38.190 One is that progress does not only move in one direction, that progress ebbs 00:03:38.190 --> 00:03:40.830 and flows, Just like organizations ebb and flow.

00:03:41.110 --> 00:03:47.910 I mean, that's a really, we know that at a base level, but it's a really important 00:03:47.910 --> 00:03:51.830 lesson and the universe continually teaches it to us. 00:03:52.130 --> 00:03:56.530 The other thing is that I don't think you should ever say it can't get any worse. 00:03:56.970 --> 00:04:00.590 Because the minute you say it can't get any worse, then generally what happens 00:04:00.590 --> 00:04:02.810 is it actually kind of gets worse. 00:04:03.170 --> 00:04:08.170 And so that's not the best time to hang out either.

So those are two lessons 00:04:08.170 --> 00:04:12.490 that I'm being taught and over and over again, I've been taught. 00:04:13.210 --> 00:04:19.890 And so that's important for us to understand. It's interesting time just because 00:04:19.890 --> 00:04:22.450 so much is going on and it's really, 00:04:22.690 --> 00:04:29.690 I don't know how you're doing, but it's kind of exciting to see how the discussion 00:04:29.690 --> 00:04:35.790 around safety and resilience and reliability has changed so much. 00:04:36.510 --> 00:04:42.150 Over time, and that the conversations we have now are much different than the 00:04:42.150 --> 00:04:44.850 conversations we would have had, for instance, 10 years ago.

00:04:45.330 --> 00:04:50.710 And it's interesting because I try to every once in a while toss in a rerun 00:04:50.710 --> 00:04:53.550 podcast because, you know, this podcast has been going 10 years, 00:04:53.970 --> 00:04:55.650 actually longer than 10 years. 00:04:55.790 --> 00:04:58.830 And so you can kind of see the journey. 00:04:59.330 --> 00:05:06.190 But I think what's even more interesting is the journey that the working world 00:05:06.190 --> 00:05:11.910 is taking, and they're kind of coming along with us. It's so much fun.

00:05:12.813 --> 00:05:16.813 To hear companies that I know nothing about, no experience, I mean, 00:05:16.853 --> 00:05:22.793 just to hear people talking about how they've really tried to retool and understand, 00:05:22.793 --> 00:05:27.493 for instance, that the worker isn't the problem, the worker is the solution. 00:05:27.933 --> 00:05:32.953 And that's exciting. I mean, there's something to be said about that idea. 00:05:33.173 --> 00:05:38.133 And that's kind of a part of, well, something's coming up.

There's a podcast 00:05:38.133 --> 00:05:40.593 coming up soon where I'm going to 00:05:40.593 --> 00:05:48.093 tease a relatively new idea and kind of introduce Project X version 2024. 00:05:48.713 --> 00:05:52.373 So we could talk a little bit more about that as well, because I'm really excited 00:05:52.373 --> 00:05:57.933 about this project and all the things that are involved in what happens in this project. 00:05:57.933 --> 00:06:02.613 But probably what we should do is talk about today's podcast, 00:06:02.613 --> 00:06:08.693 because I'm really quite pleased to share today's podcast, because we're going 00:06:08.693 --> 00:06:11.053 to meet somebody whom I think you will adore. 00:06:11.273 --> 00:06:18.873 She is an amazing human being, and her name is Bionda van Roosendal Schelling.

How'd that sound? 00:06:19.833 --> 00:06:23.113 She's Dutch, and so I tried to say it with kind of Dutchness. 00:06:23.333 --> 00:06:25.973 I probably didn't do a good job, but I didn't do a bad job. I mean, 00:06:26.033 --> 00:06:30.093 that's pretty good.

She's a general manager of health, safety, 00:06:30.153 --> 00:06:36.053 and environment at HIRMA, which is a company that you may or may not know. 00:06:36.413 --> 00:06:40.913 And if you don't know, you probably do know. You just don't know you don't know. 00:06:41.253 --> 00:06:47.373 And what they do to a great extent is quite remarkable because they manage these 00:06:47.373 --> 00:06:51.513 heavy lift vessels really around the globe.

00:06:51.513 --> 00:06:56.413 So if something really heavy needs to be moved around in the ocean, 00:06:56.873 --> 00:06:59.653 these are the people who do that. 00:07:00.573 --> 00:07:09.093 And so they do everything from platforms to windmills to ship salvage. 00:07:09.213 --> 00:07:14.693 I mean, and it's a remarkable, it's really an interesting form of work. 00:07:15.613 --> 00:07:20.113 And so when I got the chance to have Beyond on the podcast, I jumped at it.

00:07:20.113 --> 00:07:23.193 In fact, I kind of tricked her. I had her trapped. 00:07:23.373 --> 00:07:26.273 We were in a taxi, and I had her trapped. 00:07:26.813 --> 00:07:29.473 And so I thought, well, this is the chance to do the podcast.

00:07:29.613 --> 00:07:33.753 Now, you're going to notice that it sounds like it was recorded in a taxi because 00:07:33.753 --> 00:07:35.993 it was recorded in a taxi. 00:07:36.133 --> 00:07:40.533 The funniest thing about it is we did the entire conversation, and then we finished. 00:07:40.833 --> 00:07:46.413 And the taxi driver was listening intently to every single word and was completely 00:07:46.413 --> 00:07:50.773 into what we talked about. And we were actually on our way to one of these big vessels.

00:07:51.093 --> 00:07:58.653 And so it was kind of an exciting conversation. But what I found most exciting was how Beyond the End, 00:07:58.673 --> 00:08:00.993 this company have been on this 00:08:00.993 --> 00:08:06.293 journey to look at safety differently in an incredibly high-risk industry. 00:08:07.034 --> 00:08:12.214 No question here at all. The risk levels are giant, kind of like your company.

00:08:12.354 --> 00:08:15.434 I mean, there's no question that it's not risky work. 00:08:15.734 --> 00:08:21.134 What's interesting is how they constantly create capacity at really different 00:08:21.134 --> 00:08:24.374 levels. There's maritime safety capacity. 00:08:24.834 --> 00:08:29.534 There's operational safety capacity.

There's industrial safety capacity. 00:08:29.734 --> 00:08:34.934 I mean, they have kind of every hazard all at once. They're at sea on a big 00:08:34.934 --> 00:08:39.734 ship, and they're doing crane hoisting and rigging work. 00:08:40.074 --> 00:08:45.474 There's a lot going on here.

And it's so interesting to hear how Bionda talks 00:08:45.474 --> 00:08:47.314 about this in great detail. 00:08:47.474 --> 00:08:50.374 And I love bringing her voice to the public. 00:08:50.594 --> 00:08:56.274 Mostly what I love is introducing her to you. It's a great opportunity to hear 00:08:56.274 --> 00:08:59.734 somebody with a tremendous amount of expertise.

00:09:00.394 --> 00:09:04.434 She is highly qualified, highly skilled, and highly intellectual. 00:09:04.614 --> 00:09:07.974 You can kind of tell from the conversation that I'm pretty impressed with her. 00:09:08.074 --> 00:09:12.274 But maybe the best thing to do is let's listen to it. Here we go.

00:09:15.494 --> 00:09:20.714 Hi, my name is Vilna. I work for Heroma, which is a big installation contractor in the Netherlands. 00:09:21.234 --> 00:09:25.214 That's good. And what's your job for them?

I'm a manager at HSC for the Heroma 00:09:25.214 --> 00:09:28.554 Group, actually. So, I actually manage offshore operations, engineering, 00:09:28.574 --> 00:09:32.094 as well as fabrication, because we have a fabrication yard in Flossie. 00:09:32.354 --> 00:09:35.114 Oh, wow. Or Flissing, as we're saying, Dutch.

Yeah, in Dutch. 00:09:35.294 --> 00:09:38.294 You can flip in and out of Dutch as much as you, because I won't be able to 00:09:38.294 --> 00:09:40.034 test you. So, it'll all be perfect Dutch. 00:09:40.794 --> 00:09:44.094 But we'll be listening.

If there's Dutchies, they will know what I'm saying. 00:09:44.134 --> 00:09:47.754 And there are kind of a lot of Dutchies. Yeah, so I have to be a bit sensible now. So, that's good.

00:09:47.874 --> 00:09:54.154 That's a good thing to do. So, tell me about your journey that you're on right 00:09:54.154 --> 00:09:57.034 now to sort of reinvigorate the safety program. 00:09:57.274 --> 00:10:00.574 It looks like you're in a really cool opportunity. And I'm curious to see how 00:10:00.574 --> 00:10:03.614 that's going, because I'm super curious about your industry.

00:10:03.754 --> 00:10:07.454 And I'm really curious about the approach that's happening in Europe, 00:10:07.454 --> 00:10:09.674 because it's happening kind of all over Europe. 00:10:09.994 --> 00:10:13.314 Yeah, I think especially now in Europe, it's kicking in. And I think we've been 00:10:13.314 --> 00:10:18.154 operating for quite many years, decades even, in complex offshore construction 00:10:18.154 --> 00:10:22.034 and decommissioning and also more recently in renewables. 00:10:22.314 --> 00:10:25.674 And I always try to – people always ask me, okay, you're an agency manager.

00:10:25.694 --> 00:10:28.754 What the hell do you do? Good question, don't you? What the hell do you do? 00:10:28.974 --> 00:10:32.194 I just want to make sure that everybody goes home safely in all forms, 00:10:32.274 --> 00:10:33.394 physically but also mentally.

00:10:33.654 --> 00:10:38.634 So that's kind of the trajectory we're now in, is that phase that is not only 00:10:38.634 --> 00:10:42.174 the physical safety anymore. It's also about that. It's doing it with the people. 00:10:42.534 --> 00:10:46.014 For the people and actually, I think the with the people is the most important 00:10:46.014 --> 00:10:49.994 part because like you always say, it's like people for me are the solution, not the problem.

00:10:50.234 --> 00:10:52.294 So we should listen, shut up for a moment. 00:10:55.215 --> 00:10:58.795 Listen actively, learn from what they have to say, and translate that in what 00:10:58.795 --> 00:11:05.275 kind of work makes the world, the hero world in my life, a better place to work 00:11:05.275 --> 00:11:07.815 and live. But it's so exciting to hear you talk about safety. 00:11:07.955 --> 00:11:10.575 And I mean, there's just a breadth of newness.

00:11:10.775 --> 00:11:13.395 It's like, you don't see safety's job as removing risk. 00:11:13.615 --> 00:11:17.495 You see safety's job as making work better, making work easier to do. 00:11:17.915 --> 00:11:22.115 Is that reflected in the industry? Are you seeing that change in the maritime 00:11:22.115 --> 00:11:24.375 industry?

Are you seeing that change across Europe? 00:11:24.775 --> 00:11:28.675 I think it's slowly, slowly but surely. I think the concept's now kicking in. 00:11:28.895 --> 00:11:32.675 I think that's why people were so overly enthusiastic to receive you here in 00:11:32.675 --> 00:11:35.855 the Netherlands, because people are now really seeing, okay, 00:11:35.935 --> 00:11:39.255 hey guys, yeah, yeah, risk is for, but we work in a very high risk environment.

00:11:39.395 --> 00:11:41.335 That will not change. It will not change tomorrow. 00:11:41.535 --> 00:11:45.055 It will not change, I think, in the next decade or so. It's just a fact of life.

00:11:45.195 --> 00:11:48.595 So we need to start working and looking towards different and other things. 00:11:48.975 --> 00:11:51.875 And, you know, it's the people that we're doing this with. Those are the people 00:11:51.875 --> 00:11:55.515 that make the flex vessels work. Those are the people that prepare work.

00:11:55.755 --> 00:11:59.495 Those are the people that are offshore or standing outside in the rain like today. 00:12:00.795 --> 00:12:03.795 That's what we need to focus on. And I think that's the next level. 00:12:04.175 --> 00:12:07.375 It's being conscious of the risk, but also working with the people to understand 00:12:07.375 --> 00:12:10.355 it better and to look towards better ways of working.

00:12:10.695 --> 00:12:13.995 So we're at the International Maritime Contractors Association, 00:12:13.995 --> 00:12:18.735 and there's been a lot of discussion. It's kind of surprising to me on how technology 00:12:18.735 --> 00:12:19.915 is changing operations. 00:12:20.435 --> 00:12:24.215 What are you seeing from your standpoint? Because you work in these highly complex, 00:12:24.455 --> 00:12:29.275 holy cow, your vessels are, they're like science labs.

I don't even know how to describe it. 00:12:30.175 --> 00:12:35.035 Yeah, for a certain extent, I agree. Because new technology will definitely 00:12:35.035 --> 00:12:38.035 have an interest with how we do the work. But I see it more as a tool.

00:12:38.375 --> 00:12:40.895 And still, the people that have to operate it, even with AI, 00:12:41.195 --> 00:12:43.835 is how you're prompted, it will come back with whatever you want. 00:12:44.035 --> 00:12:46.795 It will make life a bit more easier in certain aspects. 00:12:47.535 --> 00:12:52.495 But especially in our types of line of work, you cannot kind of know everything beforehand. 00:12:52.755 --> 00:12:56.635 There will be circumstances that you can't plot in.

There will be weather that turns. 00:12:56.835 --> 00:12:59.415 There will be other circumstances that will throw things in the mix. 00:12:59.535 --> 00:13:04.715 So it's still people being able to kind of digest all those changes in almost 00:13:04.715 --> 00:13:06.615 a single moment and make the right decisions. 00:13:06.995 --> 00:13:09.815 So, yeah, I see technology as a fantastic tool.

00:13:10.095 --> 00:13:13.415 Makes lives a bit more easier. But it's still the human beings that need to 00:13:13.415 --> 00:13:17.015 work with the technology and be able to make the right and the safe decision 00:13:17.015 --> 00:13:19.555 when things go haywire or things change. 00:13:19.855 --> 00:13:22.595 So that's still the human element will always be there. Yeah, 00:13:22.735 --> 00:13:24.235 I think completely true.

00:13:24.455 --> 00:13:27.975 How are you coaching and mentoring your leaders? 00:13:29.225 --> 00:13:33.145 Be ready to kind of enter this next phase, not just in safety, 00:13:33.265 --> 00:13:34.665 but this next phase in operations? 00:13:34.945 --> 00:13:37.225 Because I think to me, that's such a great question. 00:13:37.745 --> 00:13:41.385 It's also a difficult question.

I think sometimes it may be a bit with a bit 00:13:41.385 --> 00:13:45.585 difficulty as well, because of course, I think this morning it was also sad. 00:13:45.945 --> 00:13:51.205 We're living now in a VUCA world where we have multitudes of generations at 00:13:51.205 --> 00:13:53.525 work in a company at any one point in time. 00:13:54.125 --> 00:13:58.585 You have different levels of age and experience of that, different ways of thinking even. 00:13:58.845 --> 00:14:02.965 So it's still a gap to bridge in my perspective, where you kind of have to kind 00:14:02.965 --> 00:14:06.425 of educate the old dynasties to get a bit more close to, let's say, 00:14:06.485 --> 00:14:10.125 the newer generations, but also vice versa to learn the newer generations to 00:14:10.125 --> 00:14:13.145 understand why we do the things we do.

00:14:13.565 --> 00:14:16.625 Because it's not like certain decisions or certain programs, 00:14:16.765 --> 00:14:19.785 certain way of working, they always come from somewhere, right? 00:14:20.045 --> 00:14:27.465 We're not a company, we're not done things has a resident in history. 00:14:27.645 --> 00:14:31.825 So it's good to be notable of that as well. Are leaders, and this isn't, 00:14:31.925 --> 00:14:35.945 because it wouldn't be fair to ask this about your guys, but as a rule, 00:14:36.185 --> 00:14:37.745 are leaders ready for this change?

00:14:37.885 --> 00:14:43.065 I mean, have we given them the right environments and developed them in such 00:14:43.065 --> 00:14:44.485 a way that they're ready for these changes? 00:14:44.785 --> 00:14:47.625 I think some are further along than others. Yeah, I think that's fair. 00:14:47.765 --> 00:14:52.185 And that's why, once it's one-size-fits-all solution, I don't think it's there.

00:14:52.465 --> 00:14:55.305 So for almost each individual it would be different what 00:14:55.305 --> 00:14:58.565 they will need to kind of account for these changes but i 00:14:58.565 --> 00:15:01.345 think the key for me as a person always would be and i always give 00:15:01.345 --> 00:15:04.305 the recommendation just need to be remain curious right you 00:15:04.305 --> 00:15:07.445 want to be you need to keep learning all the time i'm 00:15:07.445 --> 00:15:12.585 never too old to learn i truly live that so i know i don't know everything also 00:15:12.585 --> 00:15:16.285 the seniors of the today they will also not my way they're also human beings 00:15:16.285 --> 00:15:20.565 they will not know everything how do you keep your fellow senior leaders curious 00:15:20.565 --> 00:15:25.085 i mean what are you doing because Because clearly you have access to them and 00:15:25.085 --> 00:15:26.125 they're listening to you. 00:15:26.365 --> 00:15:30.125 I mean, it's kind of an exciting time, for sure. How do you keep them curious? 00:15:30.805 --> 00:15:35.725 I think the way I tend to do it is keep them aware of what is playing around.

00:15:36.685 --> 00:15:40.985 I'm one of those persons, I love to just connect to the front line and learn 00:15:40.985 --> 00:15:43.845 what's bothering them or what they're facing. 00:15:44.325 --> 00:15:49.025 I see myself also maybe as the vehicle that can be used to raise certain topics 00:15:49.025 --> 00:15:52.985 up to senior level as well. The things they might not hear usually in a boardroom 00:15:52.985 --> 00:15:56.605 or whatever, a senior management meeting, but, you know, the true voice of the 00:15:56.605 --> 00:15:59.305 people in the frontline and hopefully helping that. 00:16:01.067 --> 00:16:04.207 Make them understand a bit better and maybe steer the decision in a better way, 00:16:04.467 --> 00:16:08.727 being more conscious of what's kind of the general gist of the feeling of what's 00:16:08.727 --> 00:16:09.807 existing in the company.

00:16:10.127 --> 00:16:17.227 Have you tried to change any of the kind of like the investigation protocols or the audit protocols? 00:16:17.307 --> 00:16:22.027 Have you tried to go in and systemically change any of your old systems to become 00:16:22.027 --> 00:16:23.387 more modern and more curious? 00:16:23.607 --> 00:16:28.087 Actually, we're doing it as we speak. Oh, really?

Yeah, because we've seen a 00:16:28.087 --> 00:16:30.567 certain way of reporting of a sponics incidence, for example. 00:16:31.067 --> 00:16:34.787 And we've already seen in last year, we did quite a large investigation into 00:16:34.787 --> 00:16:37.047 an incident trend that we saw coming up. 00:16:37.247 --> 00:16:40.927 And one of the core things that came out of it is we're not learning enough from our events. 00:16:40.947 --> 00:16:44.367 So we need to look critically at how our incident management process, 00:16:44.567 --> 00:16:45.887 if you will, how we are doing that.

00:16:46.067 --> 00:16:48.347 So we actually started a small task force to say, hey, guys, 00:16:48.427 --> 00:16:51.807 let's look at academic references, research. 00:16:52.127 --> 00:16:55.967 Let's learn from our peers to say, OK, what can we do to actually learn better? 00:16:55.967 --> 00:16:59.927 Let's say learn first and all the incidents that in form of incident review 00:16:59.927 --> 00:17:01.467 panels or learning teams, if you will. 00:17:01.967 --> 00:17:05.607 And then also migrating, how can we learn more from the things that are going well?

00:17:06.187 --> 00:17:09.067 And learning from normal work, I think it's definitely one of the keys. 00:17:09.227 --> 00:17:13.027 And that's a difficult point, a difficult thing to get going. 00:17:13.247 --> 00:17:20.207 But so vital. I mean, it's just vital to what we do, the ability to learn.

So what are you doing? 00:17:20.547 --> 00:17:23.767 What kind of questions are you getting the leaders to ask how have you changed 00:17:23.767 --> 00:17:28.567 their their curiosity hmm question i know i'm filled with good questions yeah 00:17:28.567 --> 00:17:33.047 that's i have a million yeah i know i understand but i only have three good answers. 00:17:33.927 --> 00:17:38.747 Truly now i think i've tried many things and i've also noticed that the questions 00:17:38.747 --> 00:17:43.327 that i like feed a certain person a certain senior lead will be different than 00:17:43.327 --> 00:17:47.147 for others for example my news let's say directly my my my manager i was just 00:17:47.147 --> 00:17:50.347 speaking to which is she maybe that makes a difference? I don't know.

00:17:50.787 --> 00:17:55.487 She's very attuned to asking those questions, being open, psychological safety, all that. 00:17:55.927 --> 00:17:59.187 But yeah, I have different leaders that are definitely brought up at a different 00:17:59.187 --> 00:18:02.347 time, think differently that way. So I'll feed them different things. 00:18:02.527 --> 00:18:05.747 And there I will be more intuitive.

Okay. Are you aware of this, 00:18:05.847 --> 00:18:06.787 this and this playing out? 00:18:07.047 --> 00:18:10.647 And then I will also ask them, okay, do you, are you aware that the thing, 00:18:10.827 --> 00:18:14.227 the way you respond to this situation will have this effect? 00:18:14.627 --> 00:18:18.687 And sharing how that works or how this can play out at least helps them to acknowledge 00:18:18.687 --> 00:18:22.107 a bit better, okay, apparently what I've just said or the decision I just took 00:18:22.107 --> 00:18:25.367 came across something completely different because it's not what you say.

00:18:25.487 --> 00:18:26.387 It's also what people hear. 00:18:26.687 --> 00:18:29.607 And usually, you know, with the phone game, there's a little bit of muddle in 00:18:29.607 --> 00:18:30.667 between. Yeah, yeah, yeah, always. 00:18:31.087 --> 00:18:34.367 And I've noticed that everybody is just conscious of that.

Do you notice, 00:18:34.507 --> 00:18:40.187 and this is a great question for you because you tend to sort of have your feet on many continents. 00:18:40.427 --> 00:18:44.667 Do you notice a different sense of curiosity with your European leadership team 00:18:44.667 --> 00:18:47.987 as opposed to leaders in the United States or even leaders in Latin America? 00:18:48.387 --> 00:18:52.107 Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Most definitely. You know, we work internationally with many 00:18:52.107 --> 00:18:54.687 nationalities and it's different. 00:18:56.260 --> 00:19:00.380 Talking as well, because, well, I'm Dutchie. I think everybody probably knows 00:19:00.380 --> 00:19:02.440 that we tend to be quite blunt.

Yes. 00:19:02.860 --> 00:19:07.580 I think that's the good part. First of all, be aware of your kind of cultural 00:19:07.580 --> 00:19:10.500 faults, but also be sensitive of cultural aspects of others. 00:19:11.100 --> 00:19:16.420 And I've read Weissman books.

And for me, it's just, if you embrace curiosity 00:19:16.420 --> 00:19:19.960 in the widest sense, in any engagement that you may have in any continent with 00:19:19.960 --> 00:19:21.320 any leaders whatsoever, whatsoever. 00:19:21.780 --> 00:19:25.760 I think for me, that's the key to success because then you kind of are open 00:19:25.760 --> 00:19:27.900 towards the other, the viewpoints of the other person. 00:19:28.120 --> 00:19:30.560 It takes some time to reflect on that from beautiful perspectives. 00:19:30.860 --> 00:19:34.320 And then you hopefully you can use that to come to a middle ground that both 00:19:34.320 --> 00:19:36.080 of you will understand each other.

00:19:36.320 --> 00:19:41.500 But it means for if I'm in the US, I will speak differently than I'll be in Asia. 00:19:41.820 --> 00:19:43.960 Yeah. Asia for sure. Or even Latin America.

Yeah. 00:19:44.360 --> 00:19:49.020 Are you doing much operational learning? Like you talked about learning from normal work. 00:19:49.180 --> 00:19:53.920 How are you tackling that?

That's so hard to do because you do so much good normal work. 00:19:54.060 --> 00:19:59.860 I mean, it's more common than not that you do good technical complex work all the time. 00:20:00.120 --> 00:20:03.100 How do you pick what to learn from? It's a difficult one as well, 00:20:03.120 --> 00:20:07.800 because I think it's also important that certain aspects are there where they should be.

00:20:07.980 --> 00:20:11.180 For example, who am I to dictate how the guys on the work for on the team that 00:20:11.180 --> 00:20:12.920 we're going to visit have to do their work? 00:20:13.100 --> 00:20:16.160 I think we need to rely on the competency of the guys that we have or short, 00:20:16.380 --> 00:20:18.980 doing the high risk work to be capable to have that dialogue. 00:20:19.240 --> 00:20:23.560 So we have quite a nice structure, which we will have a bit of a flavor of this 00:20:23.560 --> 00:20:28.120 afternoon, is that we have supervisors that steer their lead their teams during 00:20:28.120 --> 00:20:30.700 the toolbox talks and actually have those engaging discussions. 00:20:31.080 --> 00:20:33.360 Okay, we're going to do a bit of work.

This is going to happen. 00:20:33.520 --> 00:20:36.980 Is everybody aware to create that learning on the spot rather than being. 00:20:38.804 --> 00:20:41.664 What are you most proud of right now? What am I most proud of?

00:20:41.744 --> 00:20:44.604 That's a hard question. I got to think of it. That's a very work-related. 00:20:45.084 --> 00:20:48.024 I was going to say my kids.

That's a very non-Dutch question. 00:20:48.604 --> 00:20:50.804 A Dutch question, I should say, what do you hate the most now? 00:20:51.004 --> 00:20:55.304 But no, what are you most proud of? What changes are having the biggest sticking power?

00:20:55.764 --> 00:21:00.524 For me, at the moment, it's definitely the team, the people that I'm working with. 00:21:00.844 --> 00:21:05.324 You know, the people that are working for, I think, here in my family-owned company. 00:21:05.784 --> 00:21:09.004 And I think we're a proud Dutch as well. So apologies for that.

00:21:09.224 --> 00:21:11.984 But there's definitely that family sentiment in our company, 00:21:12.204 --> 00:21:16.384 which I really love. That's probably also the reason why I'm already working here for 12 years. 00:21:16.644 --> 00:21:18.964 I would have never thought I would have been here for 12 years, 00:21:19.084 --> 00:21:20.844 but okay, it's been over 12 years now. 00:21:21.024 --> 00:21:23.684 And it's also mainly because of the people that we're working with.

00:21:23.864 --> 00:21:26.864 And they're all so freaking passionate about what we're doing. 00:21:27.144 --> 00:21:28.904 It's cool stuff that we're doing, right? 00:21:29.484 --> 00:21:33.484 It's almost like I've talked with a colleague recently and it was about, 00:21:33.684 --> 00:21:37.544 we were kind of really like cross with the fact that currently the amount of 00:21:37.544 --> 00:21:40.124 kids, that want to go to an art school college, it's depleting. 00:21:40.564 --> 00:21:42.744 And we just don't understand why.

00:21:43.224 --> 00:21:47.224 We need to just take the center stage more to talk about our profession with 00:21:47.224 --> 00:21:51.264 fashion because it is a fantastic world to work and live in. 00:21:51.764 --> 00:21:57.204 But yeah, I can imagine a newer generation. It doesn't look as cool anymore like 20 years ago. 00:21:57.444 --> 00:22:00.204 And that's an interesting, I mean, that's a really interesting problem.

00:22:00.504 --> 00:22:04.384 But one of the advantages I think you have is it seems like there's a high need 00:22:04.384 --> 00:22:08.264 now for workers to have a sense of connectedness. 00:22:08.444 --> 00:22:12.944 And you guys do that pretty well. What do you think the trick to that is? 00:22:13.424 --> 00:22:17.964 I think there is investing in that connection and investing in that family sense.

00:22:18.204 --> 00:22:22.924 I think anybody who started for Adhere might be offshore or onshore always got 00:22:22.924 --> 00:22:28.524 like, I think there was a visual, we had a seminar q