PAPod 530 - Revisiting Safety on the Edge: Past Insights and Future Conversations

Show Transcript

WEBVTT

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Okay, everybody, here we go. We're off on the adventure.

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So today's podcast, I'm going to tell a pre-story before I actually do the story

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story, and then probably a post-story, because why wouldn't you do all three, right?

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So sit back and relax. I think you're going to enjoy the journey into today's little story.

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Music.

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Hey, everybody, Pre-Accident Investigation Podcast. It's Todd Conklin. How are you?

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So today, we're going to go on an interesting journey because I've got an old

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friend who's actually not been on the pod in a while, Corey Pitzer.

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And if you don't know Corey, you should.

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I mean, I don't want to boss you around. Don't let me tell you how to live.

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But he's someone you should know. But the interesting backstory on this is that

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Corey and I had a little row Is that the right way to say that? Row?

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I'm trying to use more international terms. We had a little.

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So Corey put on a very, I would call it.

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Well, what I'd call it is something to entice people on LinkedIn.

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But I don't really follow LinkedIn.

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So because I don't really follow it, I don't read all the stuff.

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But holy cow, Corey posted this thing, and it got tons of attention that was delivered to me.

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So Corey posted some – and I don't even really know what this – this is terrible.

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But I don't even really know what the statement said.

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But a bunch of people contacted me and said, hey, have you heard what's going on with Corey Pitzer?

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So I'm standing in line waiting to get into a Billy Strings show in Washington,

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D.C., in a pretty cool venue that I hadn't been to before,

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kind of down by where the fish market used to be.

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I don't know what that's called. I should have done more research before I started

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talking about this, probably.

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But nonetheless, Corey and I had the most interesting text discussion while

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standing in line for a Billy Strings show about new safety.

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And the bottom line is, is that Corey said we have to make room in our dialogue

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for varied opinions, which is true. He's exactly right.

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I mean, in retrospect, not standing in line for a Billy Strings concert.

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I understand exactly where he's going because what he said is,

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you know, if you're not open to listening to everybody, then you tend to fall for the old trap.

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Only listening to the echo chamber in which you're in.

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And that discussion, and by the way, I should have started this earlier.

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It ended fine. I mean, there was no tears, nobody cried, no anger,

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and nobody missed a concert for Billy Strings.

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I will tell you that it was an interesting concert because the venue was packed.

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I mean, there were probably 10,000 people in there and not one chair in sight.

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And if you know me well, if you spend any time with me, you know

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that i'm constantly looking for chairs that's that's

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what i look for in fact if you ask me to define going

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shopping going shopping to me is looking for interesting places to sit that

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that's that's really what it's about and and so this concert you stood the entire

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show which was fine i made it no problem and it was really fun but a chair would

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have been nice but nonetheless This ended fine,

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but it really made me start to think, and clearly it really made Corey start

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to think, because what came out of it again is another Safety on the Edge meeting.

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Now, if you don't know the back history on Safety on the Edge.

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Gosh, it would have been 10, 15 years ago. we did a series of meetings that

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Corey entitled Safety on the Edge.

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And it was when we were first introducing some of these new ideas into industries

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really around the globe.

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And it was a pretty interesting group of folks.

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It was Sidney Decker and myself and Corey and Adam Johns who wrote.

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A remarkable book on risk. And we had these meetings where they brought in a

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bunch of industry people, and we talked about how safety could look different

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for their organization.

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And it was really a lot of fun. It was a great journey. We had tons of fun.

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And that happened 15 years ago.

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I hadn't thought about that in a long time. Well, I really hadn't thought about

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this at all until this little discussion slash aggressive texting slash argument

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happened in line for Billy Strings.

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And I'm glad it happened because what came out of it, I think really was this

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encouragement for Corey to do this again, to make a space for an open discussion.

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And that is, in fact, what's going to happen today in the podcast.

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So Corey and I got together because he said, you know, maybe we should do a podcast on this.

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And I'm always looking for stuff to put on the podcast.

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And Corey's got an interesting voice. It's always fun to hear a South African, an Afrikaans accent.

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It's just exciting. So we put together this little discussion,

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and that's exactly what you're about to hear.

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You're going to hear about a meeting that's going to be held in Berkeley,

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California, with an incredibly interesting group of folks to talk about what's

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happened really over the last 15 years or so.

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And that discussion should be a really interesting one. So sit back and listen.

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I think you're going to enjoy this discussion between Corey Pitzer and myself on Safety on the Edge 2.

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You're doing safety on the edge again i'm so impressed with you because well

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these are a lot of this is a lot of work cory i mean it's it's the coordination

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alone is crazy how come you're doing it again what what what moved you,

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Well, I think the first one moved me. The first one was incredible fun with

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you and Decker and Professor Adams.

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And it was just, I mean, we had such a great time in Australia at the time.

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And it was really fun. I must admit that was a great experience all the way around.

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Yeah. And also what was fun for me then was it was bringing a new concept.

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You know, it was pushing safety to the edge on that occasion.

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And it was just, to me, so gratifying.

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And it always stayed with me. And so about a year ago, I had just a friendly

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chat with one of my colleagues, Malcolm Staves of L'Oreal.

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Hell and and and malcolm was

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also you know likes to push the envelope and

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think outside about and push things to the

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edge and he said well why don't we do a workshop you know the kind of workshop

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that you and i did after safety on the edge like just 20 30 people yeah yeah

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yeah we started with our idea let's do a workshop and and it just started to

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escalate a bit bigger a bit bigger a little bit bigger.

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And at one point, we said, let's do a proper safety on the edge,

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a real focus on and with bringing different speakers in and really move forward in this envelope.

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And I just got caught into it and started to consume me so much that I had very

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little option but to just run with it.

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When were we in Australia? I was trying to put a date on that.

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The first one would have been 10 years ago? 2013.

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Yeah, so 11 years ago. It's 11 years ago. We were just babies.

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We were babies, man. We were.

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I had even a slight bit of a head at that stage if I don't recall.

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So what do you think has changed? I mean, it's interesting to me because in

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many ways, we're still sort of talking about the last topic of safety on the edge.

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What do you think this next topic is going to talk about? What's changing? What's different?

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Well, I don't know if we want to bring a new topic.

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You know, it's consolidation. foundation and and

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and because you know the whole new view

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of safety is so so well established as uh as a in a unique place uh if i could

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you know to me it was almost as if 11 years ago the mainstream of safety was

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not was not new view was not hot it was all the other stuff right you're Right. You're exactly right.

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And now we have that focus established well and truly on its own legs,

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as a discipline almost. I'm not sure that's the right word.

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But, you know, we've got risk management, we've got systems engineering,

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we've got all these other legs on which safety is standing.

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And now properly, NewView is standing on one of those legs.

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And we thought, well, safety on the edge is almost now also a,

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how do we consolidate? How do we align?

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How do we bring things to the same focus or to a focus in the ultimate,

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for me, the ultimate focus is how do we prevent people being killed at workplaces?

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And there's different answers to that question. And I think that's what safety

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on the edge would like to achieve, is bringing those different answers together.

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So, and I think you're exactly right. It's that the ideas that we were talking

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about 11 years ago are simply maturing into more applied uses of them.

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So 11 years ago, it was a lot of, this is a pretty good idea.

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There's some pretty good theory on it.

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There's not a ton of scholarship, but we're trying some stuff.

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Well, now people have been trying it for 11 years and things are happening and

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they're excited about it.

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And I think you're right. It probably is kind of a discipline It's a way to

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think It's not really its own science Because it's not going to be a science Safety is not a science.

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It's really a It's a form of people learning collectively Together,

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And that's what I think Safety on the Edge does Is it allows for the conversation

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Of the co-creation Not to sound too freaky But co-creation of these new ideas The scholars And the,

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The suppliers and the practitioners and the workers all come together and say,

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this is what we're learning.

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Yeah, absolutely. You know, and I think this whole model,

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if it is a model, as you say, people are discovering how to put it into practice,

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how to put systems around it, how to put practices around it,

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and how to affect behaviors at all levels of the organization,

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and how to bring all of that together in a practical way.

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And absolutely right. We didn't have that 11 years ago.

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Now people are bringing together the practice of it.

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And we want to showcase those practices, those approaches that people have turned

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into systems, if you could call it that, on this whole.

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And one thing we want to do with Safety on the Edge is it's not going to be this one-off.

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We've now established ourselves as we're going to do this annually and we may

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do it in different locations.

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We may, every third year or so, we run it in Europe and something like that.

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But also, in between, we would like to have virtual equivalents of safety on the edge.

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So we're going to have two or three virtual programs running between the next

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one in March, which will be again next March.

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And then, again, we can bring in different players, different concepts,

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different thinkers. And those ones, I think, more down to the practitioner level.

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And then at this in-person ones, we lift it up again to let's think conceptually,

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let's challenge ourselves.

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Because I think one of the things that we probably….

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Should do, my view in safety is, and I think true of true leaders in a field,

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is they actually challenge themselves.

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They challenge their own thinking all the time. They doubt their own thinking all the time.

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So this is where I think we can bring that forum together where leading pioneers

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can come with new ideas and challenge old ideas.

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And that healthy sense of skepticism Did I say that right? Yeah, that sounded right.

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That sort of healthy sense of questioning what's going on.

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That's what keeps things moving forward.

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What do you have lined out for this one? It's going to be in Berkeley, right?

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Yes, it's West Coast. Yep, yep, it's going to be West Coast.

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So, yeah, so it is going to happen on the 26th and 27th of March.

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And the week after that, the 1st and 2nd of April, we have an extension,

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a virtual extension of it.

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And so on this 26th, we're going to be at the Berkeley campus,

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at the Wheeler Hall, Wheeler Oratorium.

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And the second day, we're going to be in that spa resort, the Fairmont resort close by.

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And the second day, we'll be doing it there. We will have breakout streams,

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you know, concurrent sessions.

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On day one is all the plenary speakers, you know, like yourself.

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And it'll be just plenaries on day one.

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That sounds super interesting. What do you think the topics are going to cover this year?

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What's interesting to you, maybe, is a good place to start that question.

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Yeah, so the topics are going to be actually, you know, complementary, as we just talked.

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So on day one, let's cover day one with the kind of speakers we have.

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You bet. Yeah, a good idea.

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Yeah. So on day one, it's a real mix of speakers. Yeah.

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We're going to have people from industry associations, and I'll call them in a moment.

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But we're going to start off with yourself and John Howard.

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So two leading speakers, one industry association, John Howard with NIOSH.

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You as a conceptual pioneer.

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Then the other speakers will include Lorraine Martin of NSC president.

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We have we're going to have a panel

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on day one which is going to be a panel

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on mental and well-being which is a very topical issue yeah

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really important issue yeah with Pam Woloski

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of ASSP DR from from

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IOSH and Liz Horvath from the

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Canadian Institute of Mental Health and well-being

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and so that's that's going to be like the

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morning mix we also have kim green you you

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know kim green CEO of georgia power

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the the very halls the very halls of power that you and i walked into one day

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remember that i do you remember that office the office with the office with

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a staircase in it a private staircase it was pretty cool very very exclusive yeah yeah.

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And Kim Green has been an amazing supporter,

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leader of safety, with her chairpersonship of the Edison Electric Institute,

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and has always been extremely impressive with the focus on safety and how to

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integrate that into her world.

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So she's a very honored speaker as well.

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And then Kathy Sutcliffe, you know her very well. Yeah, Kathleen, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Obviously famous for co-authoring Managing the Unexpected with Carl Wick.

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So there's academia, there's industry people, there's associations,

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there's governance people.

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There's going to be James Frederick from OSHA.

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And then the safety professionals, we have Andresa Hernandez of Siemens,

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global leader in safety for Siemens.

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And Karol Kray is also obviously very much in the operational risk field academic

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from Nottingham University.

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So with that, you know, we've got local and global people coming just on day one already.

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So that actually sets the scene basically for the next day.

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So next day we'll have four concurrent sessions.

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The one concurrent session will be including, it's a bit like a mix of topics,

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different topics on day two in stream one.

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And there we have people from international level, Manal Azi from ILO.

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We have Rodney Rocha. I don't know if you know Rodney Rocha. No, I don't think so.

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Rodney was instrumental way back with the Columbia disaster.

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And it was his team. He was an aerospace engineer. It was his team that questioned

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the striking of that wing with a phone.

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And it was his insistence and drive that got me, the striking of the wing actually

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looked at in more depth by NASA at the time, which it didn't help in the end.

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But he's going to talk about how do you break through the silos in your organization,

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the resistance in your organization to report up, to speak out and have the courage to speak up.

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And that's what he did at the time.

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So from a heartfelt perspective, he's going to, I think, bring a lot of value to the conference.

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Oh, yes, I do remember. Yeah. Oh, this is great. Yeah.

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And we have Tom Krauss. We're going to have a fireside chat with Tom Krauss.

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Obviously, he's made significant contributions over the years.

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And there's going to be a panel on the future fit.

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How do we future fit our safety professionals for changes that's approaching in the world?

00:19:46.991 --> 00:19:52.631
So that's just the stream. Stream two will be very much on safety technology,

00:19:53.311 --> 00:19:58.611
process engineering, the harder part of safety, if I could call it that.

00:19:58.611 --> 00:20:07.331
It's the more systems, reporting systems, next generation technology, AI, all of those focus.

00:20:08.323 --> 00:20:13.203
And then Stream 3 is going to be very much human performance,

00:20:13.763 --> 00:20:17.523
organizational performance, leadership, culture, people.

00:20:17.823 --> 00:20:22.563
And we have a range of speakers there. You know most of them.

00:20:22.763 --> 00:20:26.083
We have Kathy Seabrook. We have Lisa Brooks, you know very well.

00:20:27.163 --> 00:20:29.983
Lori Shelby, obviously you know well from Tesla.

00:20:31.143 --> 00:20:37.243
And Carol Smets from what's that drinks company, Pennart.

00:20:38.083 --> 00:20:42.743
I've got the name of it now. And so there's several speakers in that field.

00:20:42.883 --> 00:20:47.523
James Jean-Christophe LeCos is going to be on a panel.

00:20:47.903 --> 00:20:51.723
And then Stream 4 is going to be High Reliability, Organizing,

00:20:51.883 --> 00:20:53.723
Future of Safety, Resilience Engineering.

00:20:54.183 --> 00:20:58.783
And there we'll have Ron Gant. You know Ron Gant? Yes, the world-famous Ron

00:20:58.783 --> 00:21:00.423
Gant. We love him. Yeah, yeah.

00:21:00.803 --> 00:21:02.943
Tony Mishara. Oh, great.

00:21:03.603 --> 00:21:06.723
Paul Leonard. Paul Schumann, academic.

00:21:07.483 --> 00:21:14.163
And yeah, and so that's the range of, so there's four streams and with a total

00:21:14.163 --> 00:21:17.943
of 72 speakers on the two day. Wow!

00:21:19.363 --> 00:21:23.183
And top level. There's a lot of speakers that are actually probably going to

00:21:23.183 --> 00:21:27.483
be disappointed that we didn't accept them because this is not about bringing

00:21:27.483 --> 00:21:32.543
the popular speakers in with lots of LinkedIn followers and things like that.

00:21:32.543 --> 00:21:37.203
It is to bring the right balance to the audience, the right focus,

00:21:37.403 --> 00:21:39.063
people that can speak about different topics.

00:21:39.383 --> 00:21:43.143
So some people missed out will be featured in the virtual side,

00:21:43.303 --> 00:21:47.243
but this is our balance. This is what we want to achieve with this.

00:21:47.483 --> 00:21:52.563
Wow, what a tremendous amount of work you've done. This sounds pretty exciting, I think. Yeah.

00:21:54.043 --> 00:21:56.923
I haven't had a chance to manage my company safe much.

00:22:00.103 --> 00:22:05.563
But I do have some backup there. So, yeah, we still continue with that.

00:22:05.683 --> 00:22:10.623
But this has been very time consuming. But it's a work of joy,

00:22:10.863 --> 00:22:13.523
you know, in all terms. Really a work of joy.

00:22:13.683 --> 00:22:16.623
The hardest thing, I think, is going to be deciding on that second day what

00:22:16.623 --> 00:22:17.863
stream you want to be a part of.

00:22:18.843 --> 00:22:22.583
Yeah. Yeah, that is. So we're leaving some space where people can move about

00:22:22.583 --> 00:22:25.403
between sessions. Nice. Yeah.

00:22:26.263 --> 00:22:30.963
But we're also going to, the other thing we did decide on earlier on,

00:22:31.063 --> 00:22:34.383
it's not going to be consultant-driven conference.

00:22:34.523 --> 00:22:37.343
You know, most conferences are consultant speaking.

00:22:37.563 --> 00:22:41.883
Yeah, I agree. And while there is value and that has a place in everything,

00:22:42.383 --> 00:22:45.063
we limit the number of consultants.

00:22:45.643 --> 00:22:50.983
We also insist that the consultants are not going to promote their companies,

00:22:51.163 --> 00:22:52.023
their books or whatever.

00:22:52.163 --> 00:22:54.323
It's all going to be conceptual discussions.

00:22:55.403 --> 00:23:01.463
And the other side of it is that we're going to ensure that there's,

00:23:02.247 --> 00:23:05.187
some some some discussions happening it's not

00:23:05.187 --> 00:23:08.647
just people speaking and go and gone so for

00:23:08.647 --> 00:23:12.267
instance at the end of day two the last

00:23:12.267 --> 00:23:15.447
session is going to be a speaker panel

00:23:15.447 --> 00:23:19.987
so all the speakers of the day in that stream is going to come together on stage

00:23:19.987 --> 00:23:25.367
and we're going to have you know obviously roaming microphones and so we're

00:23:25.367 --> 00:23:29.687
going to then have people ask their questions to speakers then and challenge

00:23:29.687 --> 00:23:33.067
speakers in terms of what they've said and have, you know,

00:23:33.667 --> 00:23:36.087
interaction, conceptual interaction about things.

00:23:36.327 --> 00:23:40.227
And it's going to be a good solid hour. The last session is going to be close

00:23:40.227 --> 00:23:48.467
to an hour of this kind of interchange and not just one-sided talking and people listen to speakers.

00:23:48.467 --> 00:23:52.187
You know, we want to really bring a different angle to it.

00:23:52.667 --> 00:23:55.807
It sounds really thoughtful. I'm quite impressed.

00:23:57.307 --> 00:24:04.427
This will be one to absolutely go to and it's in Berkeley yeah who wouldn't

00:24:04.427 --> 00:24:07.967
want to have a bit of a time out afterwards to the Napa Valley.

00:24:09.787 --> 00:24:15.407
Yeah or just get a burrito made of wheat germ and sand,

00:24:16.327 --> 00:24:21.927
some kind of organic burrito with wheat germ and sand that'll be interesting

00:24:21.927 --> 00:24:25.087
that's cool so where do they go to sign up,

00:24:26.267 --> 00:24:31.767
Our conference web is called safetyontheedge, one word. Gotcha.

00:24:33.247 --> 00:24:39.387
Safetyontheedge.com. Got it. Safetyontheedge.com. And then they can register.

00:24:39.567 --> 00:24:41.187
There is a different level.

00:24:41.427 --> 00:24:46.687
They can register for the in-person and the two days at Berkeley,

00:24:46.747 --> 00:24:51.267
or they can register for the and or for the virtual, which happens a week later.

00:24:52.087 --> 00:24:57.407
Sounds perfect. But there's also something else that we're doing,

00:24:57.847 --> 00:25:03.147
Todd, and this is Award for Excellence. Oh, yeah.

00:25:03.567 --> 00:25:06.807
And so we have two awards for excellence.

00:25:07.127 --> 00:25:13.547
One is Lifetime Awards, and we've selected, and this year we decided to focus

00:25:13.547 --> 00:25:19.787
on four academics, people who pioneered safety in the world of safety,

00:25:19.927 --> 00:25:21.847
different perspectives, different disciplines.

00:25:21.847 --> 00:25:30.687
And we have been fortunate enough to reach James Reason, and he will be a recipient of the award.

00:25:31.127 --> 00:25:34.267
He's not able to travel to Berkeley

00:25:34.267 --> 00:25:39.787
himself, and so Karl McRae will be receiving the award on his behalf.

00:25:40.588 --> 00:25:45.708
And the other recipients is Professor David Woods, who obviously you know very

00:25:45.708 --> 00:25:48.188
well too. He's going to attend.

00:25:49.028 --> 00:25:52.328
Carleen Roberts, Professor Carleen Roberts, she's going to attend.

00:25:52.548 --> 00:25:56.148
Excellent. And then Professor Diane Vaughan. Excellent.

00:25:56.848 --> 00:26:00.568
Unfortunately, she can't attend for a very good reason. It's her birthday,

00:26:00.608 --> 00:26:04.348
and her family is gathering on the East Coast to attend her birthday.

00:26:04.468 --> 00:26:06.708
Fair enough. That's fair enough. Fair enough.

00:26:07.388 --> 00:26:12.868
And yes, we'll have the office of the chancellor of the University of Berkeley

00:26:12.868 --> 00:26:15.868
handing over the awards on the night.

00:26:16.028 --> 00:26:19.188
So there's a gala night, the middle, on the 26th.

00:26:19.908 --> 00:26:25.668
And the other thing that's going to happen there is we've actually also promoted

00:26:25.668 --> 00:26:31.908
companies to participate in an award process, an award assessment process.

00:26:32.528 --> 00:26:36.368
So there's 40 companies that have signed up for this around the world.

00:26:36.708 --> 00:26:42.088
And what they're going to do is they're going to complete a self-assessment criteria.

00:26:42.288 --> 00:26:46.988
There's 36 criteria that we ask them to self-assess themselves on.

00:26:48.288 --> 00:26:52.128
And this is arranged in leadership, safety and health management,

00:26:52.488 --> 00:26:56.928
category three is human and organizational performance, information and analysis

00:26:56.928 --> 00:26:59.908
management, how do they manage risks, and performance management.

00:27:00.668 --> 00:27:05.548
And those would be the categories in which they self-assess them and score themselves.

00:27:05.968 --> 00:27:10.168
And then we're going to select them with a team who's the best.

00:27:10.568 --> 00:27:15.848
And then we're going to do external verification of those top finalists.

00:27:16.408 --> 00:27:20.748
And then the finalists of the finalists are going to be invited to the conference

00:27:20.748 --> 00:27:25.028
on day one to present why they think they should win the award.

00:27:25.388 --> 00:27:27.168
That is the last session of day one.

00:27:27.728 --> 00:27:34.868
And the audience is going to vote who is going to be the winner of the SOTI Award of Excellence.

00:27:35.148 --> 00:27:39.388
And that'll be handed over that night as well. And the award will be given by Simon Cowell.

00:27:40.743 --> 00:27:45.743
And the award will be presented by Simon Cowell. Simon Cowell.

00:27:46.623 --> 00:27:49.423
Yes. Yes. I mean, it's going to be a buzzer. That's right.

00:27:49.963 --> 00:27:53.263
For a moment there, I thought, I don't think Corey watches that show.

00:27:53.403 --> 00:27:57.123
But then you caught on, so we're good. This sounds amazing, Corey.

00:27:57.963 --> 00:28:01.923
I'm so glad you took the time to talk to me about this. And I think it's going

00:28:01.923 --> 00:28:04.003
to be a really fun experience.

00:28:04.223 --> 00:28:06.703
I'm so looking forward to it. Thank you, my friend.

00:28:07.443 --> 00:28:11.223
Yeah. Thank you for inviting me on Talk This. So, and obviously we're very honored

00:28:11.223 --> 00:28:15.183
to have you there and hopefully you'll, you'll join us on the gala night and

00:28:15.183 --> 00:28:17.063
hopefully on day two as well. You bet.

00:28:17.323 --> 00:28:20.703
You bet. I wouldn't miss it. And you can come on any podcast you want to,

00:28:20.803 --> 00:28:22.683
Corey. You know that. You've been on a million times.

00:28:23.303 --> 00:28:28.263
Yeah. There's a few times now. Yeah. Yeah. And remember one day I took over

00:28:28.263 --> 00:28:29.603
your podcast. That's true.

00:28:30.563 --> 00:28:34.203
That's true. I remember that. That was good. Thanks for talking to me, man.

00:28:39.843 --> 00:28:43.443
Station I didn't think. I mean, you know, Corey and I can get together and swing

00:28:43.443 --> 00:28:45.423
it, and that's exactly what we did.

00:28:45.683 --> 00:28:48.923
And it's funny because it really did start with this little argument.

00:28:49.683 --> 00:28:52.303
What do you call it? Text argument? Argument? That's what I call it.

00:28:52.363 --> 00:28:53.883
Argument? I don't know. You can call it anything you want.

00:28:54.303 --> 00:28:59.523
But it went on, and he dug into it and got some co-facilitators,

00:28:59.523 --> 00:29:01.703
and it sounds like it'll be a great meeting.

00:29:02.043 --> 00:29:04.723
That's the pod. Thanks for listening. I'll see you next week.

00:29:04.883 --> 00:29:06.703
Be super sweet, will you?

00:29:06.903 --> 00:29:09.883
Until then, learn something new every single day. Have as much fun as you possibly

00:29:09.883 --> 00:29:12.983
can. Be good to each other. Check in on one another. I mean it.

00:29:13.323 --> 00:29:15.443
And for goodness sakes, you guys, be safe.

00:29:16.880 --> 00:29:27.119
Music.