PAPod 532 - Lessons from Leadership with Doug Parker and Jim Frederick

WEBVTT 00:00:00.017 --> 00:00:04.217 I'm so excited to have you guys on, and I think this is a really great opportunity. 00:00:04.457 --> 00:00:06.377 What do you guys want to accomplish in this? 00:00:06.777 --> 00:00:13.257 Well, good question. I mean, I think we can talk about some of the things we 00:00:13.257 --> 00:00:15.657 thought we got right.

Yeah. 00:00:16.437 --> 00:00:18.357 And we could talk about some of 00:00:18.357 --> 00:00:23.137 the work I think we wish we were around to complete. Down set. Down set.

00:00:23.440 --> 00:00:35.440 Music. 00:00:34.117 --> 00:00:36.937 Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Pre-Accident Investigation Podcast. 00:00:37.197 --> 00:00:39.997 It's me, Todd Conklin.

How are you? 00:00:40.597 --> 00:00:48.897 Well, it has been an exciting time, and I've kind of been really excited to share this podcast, 00:00:49.057 --> 00:00:54.497 even though I know already it's a two-parter because we couldn't hold our conversation 00:00:54.497 --> 00:00:57.197 to 20 minutes. That was not going to happen. 00:00:57.497 --> 00:01:01.737 I knew it was not going to happen.

I failed. It's my fault. I'm taking the heat for it completely. 00:01:02.057 --> 00:01:07.897 But I've been really excited to get this pod up and out.

I needed to wait for 00:01:07.897 --> 00:01:09.777 a transition to happen, and I did. 00:01:10.077 --> 00:01:14.077 And we're going to talk to former OSHA administrator Doug Parker, 00:01:14.317 --> 00:01:20.317 most recent OSHA administrator, and Deputy Secretary Doug Parker, 00:01:20.457 --> 00:01:23.677 and then Jim Frederick, the OSHA leadership team. 00:01:23.677 --> 00:01:29.737 And what this is today, and really the next one as well, 00:01:29.937 --> 00:01:36.477 is really an opportunity just to sit down and talk about what it was like to 00:01:36.477 --> 00:01:40.077 work in OSHA, what it's like to be in that level of governance. 00:01:40.817 --> 00:01:44.717 What did they feel good about?

What did they accomplish? What happened well? 00:01:44.797 --> 00:01:47.277 I mean, it's just an open conversation. 00:01:47.497 --> 00:01:50.897 And these guys are the greatest.

I mean, they're just the greatest. 00:01:51.217 --> 00:01:54.317 Because they didn't make any rules. They didn't have any rules. 00:01:54.497 --> 00:01:57.017 They just said, yeah, let's get together and talk.

00:01:57.217 --> 00:02:05.257 Because I really wanted to just sort of best encapsulate what James Reason calls 00:02:05.257 --> 00:02:08.397 the unfortunate lot of the regulator. 00:02:09.037 --> 00:02:14.017 And you'll hear me kind of refer to that a little bit because when you're providing 00:02:14.017 --> 00:02:17.437 regulation, enforcement matters. 00:02:17.777 --> 00:02:21.197 I mean, it matters a lot. It's like when we talk about the difference between 00:02:21.197 --> 00:02:22.557 accountability and discipline.

00:02:23.277 --> 00:02:27.397 Discipline matters. Enforcement is an important leadership tool. 00:02:27.657 --> 00:02:32.317 It's an important governance tool, just as discipline is an important leadership tool. 00:02:33.032 --> 00:02:39.312 But it's not the only tool.

And in fact, it shouldn't be the first tool we use. 00:02:39.432 --> 00:02:44.472 And you'll hear that reflected in the discussion we have around what it's like 00:02:44.472 --> 00:02:52.332 to be in that position, what it's like to see the world from that level, from the OSHA level. 00:02:52.512 --> 00:02:57.292 And for those of us in the United States, I actually think it's a really interesting 00:02:57.292 --> 00:03:00.232 snapshot into the world in which we live. 00:03:00.232 --> 00:03:05.052 For the rest of you guys around the globe, I can't not think you won't learn 00:03:05.052 --> 00:03:12.372 something about the governance, compliance, and regulations that exist in your world as well.

00:03:12.632 --> 00:03:16.232 Because it is really an interesting line to walk. 00:03:16.632 --> 00:03:20.952 Because you want the world to get better. You want fewer people to die and fewer 00:03:20.952 --> 00:03:24.112 injuries. No question about it.

Everybody's got the same goal. 00:03:24.712 --> 00:03:30.972 It's the role we play in the larger picture that becomes, well, 00:03:31.032 --> 00:03:36.152 in this case, you'll have to be your judge for yourself, but kind of interesting to talk about. 00:03:36.352 --> 00:03:44.832 Plus the fact that I just find both Doug and Jim incredibly warm and open and 00:03:44.832 --> 00:03:49.632 giving, and they really do want to share their journey. 00:03:49.812 --> 00:03:54.792 And who doesn't want that?

I mean, if you think about it, that is kind of what 00:03:54.792 --> 00:03:56.252 it's all about. How are you? 00:03:56.912 --> 00:04:04.572 How's your journey? Because your journey is just as complex and just as meaningful as anybody else's.

00:04:04.672 --> 00:04:10.032 And we're all sort of in this together. We're all kind of pulling together to 00:04:10.032 --> 00:04:13.392 make the world a better place. And it's easy to get discouraged, 00:04:13.392 --> 00:04:18.432 but it's also just as easy to, I think, be encouraged. 00:04:18.952 --> 00:04:23.652 And I've always really thought, at least for me, I can't speak for you, 00:04:23.952 --> 00:04:29.852 that choosing to see what we're doing to change the world and make it better 00:04:29.852 --> 00:04:33.852 is a much healthier way to think about, 00:04:34.572 --> 00:04:39.052 the future.

You know, instead of worrying about what has happened, 00:04:39.072 --> 00:04:43.972 we should probably be more fixated on what will happen next. 00:04:44.392 --> 00:04:48.132 And I think that's actually a really encouraging message globally, 00:04:48.472 --> 00:04:52.132 not just in the United States, not just in Canada, not just in Denmark, 00:04:52.432 --> 00:04:56.012 but globally, because there's just so much going on. 00:04:56.072 --> 00:04:59.612 And I think what we do next will make a huge difference. 00:04:59.932 --> 00:05:01.732 At least that's kind of where I am.

00:05:02.152 --> 00:05:05.272 And, you know, it's the middle of winter in New Mexico. 00:05:05.992 --> 00:05:10.472 So I have tried my hardest to sneak away to warm places. 00:05:10.672 --> 00:05:13.592 But every place I go, they always say this. It's never been this cold.

00:05:13.692 --> 00:05:15.672 It's not this cold. It's never this cold in Florida. 00:05:15.972 --> 00:05:19.312 So when I sneak away, I'm just taking the cold weather with me. 00:05:19.432 --> 00:05:22.772 So I might as well just stay home, just hunker down, you know, 00:05:23.112 --> 00:05:28.012 get a bunch of snacks because snacks make everything better and just see what happens next.

00:05:28.152 --> 00:05:33.712 We've got so much to talk about, and I will share so much with you, 00:05:33.832 --> 00:05:37.632 but I'm mostly excited to actually start this conversation. 00:05:37.792 --> 00:05:42.232 Now, this is a two-parter, so this is part one of a conversation we had a couple 00:05:42.232 --> 00:05:48.332 weeks ago, and I think you'll enjoy kind of the direction the conversation takes. 00:05:48.712 --> 00:05:55.972 You can sort of interpret it and think about it and kind of decipher where we're 00:05:55.972 --> 00:05:58.852 heading next on this journey we're all taking together. 00:05:59.092 --> 00:06:03.652 This is former OSHA Administrator Doug Parker and Jim Frederick, 00:06:03.912 --> 00:06:08.032 the Assistant OSHA Administrator, in a conversation just for us.

00:06:11.252 --> 00:06:15.912 The time you guys have spent has been a really important time, 00:06:16.072 --> 00:06:19.572 I think, developmentally for occupational safety and health, 00:06:19.772 --> 00:06:22.492 really globally, but certainly in the United States. 00:06:22.492 --> 00:06:27.552 But I also think it's it's been a time of very, dare I say it again, 00:06:27.732 --> 00:06:28.692 interesting challenges. 00:06:29.372 --> 00:06:34.652 And and that's been kind of a part of your guys's story, the legacy that you're leaving. 00:06:35.463 --> 00:06:40.483 As we move on in time.

What do you kind of take out of this? 00:06:40.603 --> 00:06:43.823 What is your overall take on the time you had? 00:06:44.603 --> 00:06:49.483 First of all, just it was, are we rolling yet? Yeah, we're rolling.

Okay. 00:06:51.343 --> 00:06:53.523 Unless you don't want to be, and then we don't have to. No, no, 00:06:53.583 --> 00:06:55.183 I just wasn't. I just did not.

Okay. 00:06:56.343 --> 00:06:59.743 So first of all, it's just 00:06:59.743 --> 00:07:02.723 an incredible honor to be in a job like this and 00:07:02.723 --> 00:07:05.623 I don't think that you fully appreciate the 00:07:05.623 --> 00:07:09.543 gravity of it until it comes 00:07:09.543 --> 00:07:12.563 to a close in some ways because it's such 00:07:12.563 --> 00:07:17.303 an incredible opportunity and you look back at all the great things that that 00:07:17.303 --> 00:07:25.783 you feel good about and if you are the kind of person who tends to be also pushing 00:07:25.783 --> 00:07:30.303 for more and self-critical and so forth, 00:07:30.323 --> 00:07:34.943 you also think about how much more you wish you could have gotten done and the 00:07:34.943 --> 00:07:41.163 things that you hope continue, like our work on safety and health management systems, 00:07:41.483 --> 00:07:44.183 some of our innovations around enforcement, 00:07:44.883 --> 00:07:49.223 wishing we had more time to work on some whistleblower reforms. 00:07:49.363 --> 00:07:50.963 Then there's our rulemaking. 00:07:51.163 --> 00:07:56.143 There's all kinds of things and then of course internal work that we began that's 00:07:56.143 --> 00:08:00.743 under process and that i hope continues to sort of make it a stronger organization 00:08:00.743 --> 00:08:03.663 internally jim anything to add.

00:08:05.363 --> 00:08:12.063 Yes and to to reflect back todd you know on starting this job during the pandemic was, 00:08:13.623 --> 00:08:17.683 incredibly interesting to say the least it was very difficult you know it was 00:08:17.683 --> 00:08:22.723 at a point in time where we were still pretty well on lockdown across this country 00:08:22.723 --> 00:08:26.003 on inauguration day just four years ago. 00:08:26.663 --> 00:08:32.703 And to see this work in the context of where that started and where we are today, 00:08:32.883 --> 00:08:38.023 there have been some huge, huge successful advances out of this agency. 00:08:38.183 --> 00:08:42.703 But two of the things that I always take away are, one, the importance of kind 00:08:42.703 --> 00:08:48.323 of the interplay between OSHA and the health and safety profession. 00:08:48.723 --> 00:08:52.703 And that symbiotic relationship is such that, you know, one really doesn't exist 00:08:52.703 --> 00:08:57.743 without the other and that we need each other to make certain that the other 00:08:57.743 --> 00:08:59.883 part does the best they can.

00:09:00.083 --> 00:09:03.023 And I think we've done a number of things in that arena. 00:09:03.823 --> 00:09:07.983 And secondly, it's just the importance of the people that make decisions. 00:09:08.934 --> 00:09:12.434 The work that happens here, it all matters. And it's really about the people 00:09:12.434 --> 00:09:15.194 that come in every day for their career, 00:09:15.394 --> 00:09:19.274 be it a few years they spend at the agency, or in some cases, 00:09:19.414 --> 00:09:24.374 it's almost 40 years that a few people have retired here in the last few weeks 00:09:24.374 --> 00:09:27.034 who have almost 40 years of seniority.

00:09:27.334 --> 00:09:32.714 And it's just incredible because the commitment, the dedication, 00:09:33.114 --> 00:09:37.594 and also the skill set that they have brought to their work is just phenomenal 00:09:37.594 --> 00:09:41.994 in all regards. the true meaning of public service. 00:09:42.414 --> 00:09:45.374 We see it each and every day with the staff walking down the hall. 00:09:45.634 --> 00:09:49.894 And that's a remarkable part of, I think, the story you guys tell, for sure.

00:09:50.134 --> 00:09:56.714 The challenge is, is what part of, so I always am reminded of James Reason, 00:09:56.874 --> 00:10:00.274 who said, the unlucky lot of the regulator. 00:10:00.514 --> 00:10:05.634 And his premise behind that is that you play this really interesting role where 00:10:05.634 --> 00:10:14.694 you have to be both partners in success and play an active role in governance at the same time. 00:10:14.814 --> 00:10:18.954 And so there really is this interesting balance that you guys had to find pretty early. 00:10:19.294 --> 00:10:23.914 And the agency, I mean, maybe because I'm an old man, I can say this, 00:10:24.054 --> 00:10:25.654 but it's still relatively new.

00:10:26.114 --> 00:10:34.274 So the opportunity to do things and move the agency in a new direction was really wide open to you guys. 00:10:34.394 --> 00:10:38.034 And you worked hard to do that. That was a remarkable part of what happened. 00:10:38.454 --> 00:10:44.654 What surprised both of you when you came into this job that you thought was 00:10:44.654 --> 00:10:46.194 kind of remarkable and unexpected?

00:10:47.545 --> 00:10:50.905 Well, I think when we talked last, I discussed a 00:10:50.905 --> 00:10:57.265 little bit about the relationship between the national office and the regional 00:10:57.265 --> 00:11:05.445 office and how the dynamics of the organization is kind of unique compared to 00:11:05.445 --> 00:11:09.445 other organizations that I have worked with. 00:11:09.445 --> 00:11:14.985 It's a little bit more of a federalist type of system where you've got many 00:11:14.985 --> 00:11:20.645 OSHAs that are operating throughout the field rather than a pure hierarchy. 00:11:21.225 --> 00:11:29.025 And then you have two deputies if you're the head of the agency that each have 00:11:29.025 --> 00:11:32.065 respective functions, but it's all carried out in the field. 00:11:32.065 --> 00:11:37.905 So you've got these various dynamics that are great potential for synergy and 00:11:37.905 --> 00:11:43.085 cooperation, and there are also potentials for silos.

00:11:44.525 --> 00:11:52.325 And I think that what surprised me was that, I don't know if it's so much of 00:11:52.325 --> 00:11:57.425 a, I don't know if I'd call it a surprise, but it certainly really gave it more 00:11:57.425 --> 00:11:58.405 thought after I arrived. 00:11:58.405 --> 00:12:05.165 I think the absence of a permanent leader for some time had really eroded, 00:12:05.405 --> 00:12:12.365 and COVID and being remote as well, had eroded what I think was a stronger relationship 00:12:12.365 --> 00:12:18.045 in an earlier time at OSHA between how the field worked with the national office 00:12:18.045 --> 00:12:19.925 and how the regions worked together. 00:12:20.225 --> 00:12:23.765 And so there was some things to overcome. 00:12:23.765 --> 00:12:30.385 And I think also, I don't know if I underestimated, but it really surprised 00:12:30.385 --> 00:12:36.445 me how palpable it was, the effect of the prior four years on morale, 00:12:36.705 --> 00:12:38.705 and in the department more generally, 00:12:38.985 --> 00:12:41.925 but also at OSHA, the level of...

00:12:44.286 --> 00:12:50.486 Of, of need of leadership and trust building, you know, that the trust building 00:12:50.486 --> 00:12:57.286 that we had to do with, with, with staff was really, you can't kind of over, overstate it. 00:12:57.506 --> 00:13:02.266 And it was, and I think it was just from, from the absence of, 00:13:02.386 --> 00:13:05.226 of confirmed leadership over a period of time. 00:13:05.246 --> 00:13:09.326 It's not a criticism of, of the folks who were acting there and I think did, 00:13:09.566 --> 00:13:14.226 did the best job that they could the prior administration, but it was broader 00:13:14.226 --> 00:13:21.566 issues of leadership at the department that were at odds sometimes with OSHA's 00:13:21.566 --> 00:13:25.366 mission and an absence of a confirmed agency head, 00:13:25.446 --> 00:13:29.546 which really makes a bigger difference than you might imagine if you're not in government. 00:13:29.726 --> 00:13:33.886 It seems like that would be, so it seems like that the trust building internally 00:13:33.886 --> 00:13:37.406 would dramatically and directly impact the trust building externally.

00:13:37.406 --> 00:13:44.046 So the internal trust you build as an agency will then find its way to the trust 00:13:44.046 --> 00:13:48.406 you have with the people you serve throughout the nation in their complex jobs. 00:13:48.526 --> 00:13:53.586 So that makes total sense to me. And that opportunity you guys had to come in 00:13:53.586 --> 00:13:58.586 and provide really that ability to restore that trust and redirect leadership 00:13:58.586 --> 00:14:00.286 was a pretty interesting opportunity. 00:14:00.546 --> 00:14:07.726 What was your initial direction?

What was your guys' goal as you were coming in four years ago? 00:14:08.586 --> 00:14:14.406 Well, it was a little bit of a blur at first because of COVID, 00:14:14.646 --> 00:14:16.826 right? So there were a lot of immediate needs. 00:14:17.006 --> 00:14:22.426 And really, Jim can speak to that better than I because he was here from day 00:14:22.426 --> 00:14:24.286 one bearing the brunt of that.

00:14:24.526 --> 00:14:30.226 But when I arrived some 10 months later after the inauguration. 00:14:31.746 --> 00:14:37.226 My goal was to get input from a relatively small team of people about what our 00:14:37.226 --> 00:14:38.846 strategic priorities ought to be. 00:14:39.106 --> 00:14:42.246 I mean, we have about 18 executives at OSHA. 00:14:42.486 --> 00:14:49.646 It's a little bit of an unwieldy size of a group for formation of a strategic vision, 00:14:49.646 --> 00:14:54.046 but we did pull representatives from the region and national offices together 00:14:54.046 --> 00:15:02.106 with our political staff to talk about how we might put certain things in motion.

00:15:02.446 --> 00:15:07.146 And interestingly, the things that really stood out were much more about building 00:15:07.146 --> 00:15:13.686 the organization internally than any particular external initiatives. 00:15:13.946 --> 00:15:17.446 And I think that speaks exactly to what your last point was, 00:15:17.586 --> 00:15:23.226 that there was a need and a thirst for organizational strength. 00:15:23.666 --> 00:15:27.786 That's, of course, a prerequisite, a kind of fundamental and foundational aspect 00:15:27.786 --> 00:15:32.726 of whatever initiatives you want to launch if you want them to be successful. 00:15:33.526 --> 00:15:39.486 Did the COVID work redefine you guys?

What'd you learn from the COVID experience? 00:15:39.686 --> 00:15:41.246 Because it's an important part of the story. 00:15:41.626 --> 00:15:45.686 Why don't you take that? Yeah.

And Todd, I think that, as Doug alluded to, 00:15:45.846 --> 00:15:50.766 that first 10 months for the first year and a half, but particularly that first 00:15:50.766 --> 00:15:52.146 10 months of this administration, 00:15:52.426 --> 00:15:59.186 truly the primary objectives were outlined almost all around response to COVID. 00:15:59.466 --> 00:16:04.306 And so, you know, that kind of defined that first period of time and the significant 00:16:04.306 --> 00:16:05.386 amount of work that was done. 00:16:05.666 --> 00:16:11.406 You know, there were projects that were in there that in normal government timeframes 00:16:11.406 --> 00:16:16.446 might have taken, been measured in years that we did in weeks to get out the door. 00:16:16.786 --> 00:16:23.286 And so it then leading to your follow-up, it really did help us to define a couple of things.

00:16:23.546 --> 00:16:30.406 One is, you know, kind of some of the messages we've taken away from how we 00:16:30.406 --> 00:16:36.046 can do the regulation part of this work more quickly, more effectively, and more efficiently, 00:16:36.346 --> 00:16:42.266 taking into account important input from stakeholders along the way to make sure we get it right. 00:16:42.606 --> 00:16:48.386 And then secondly, also in the operations in the field, making sure that, one. 00:16:48.906 --> 00:16:53.346 We were taking care of, making sure we were taking care of the hazards that 00:16:53.346 --> 00:16:58.386 the staff were facing when they were going into what at the time was still somewhat 00:16:58.386 --> 00:17:03.986 of an unknown hazard at the workplace through the internal safety management system here. 00:17:04.446 --> 00:17:09.626 And then, you know, secondly, making sure we were giving them the tools to do 00:17:09.626 --> 00:17:15.146 their work as the enforcement entity following a complaint or otherwise at an 00:17:15.146 --> 00:17:19.926 inspection to address the hazards they were seeing in the workplace related 00:17:19.926 --> 00:17:22.266 to the COVID-19 pandemic.

00:17:22.526 --> 00:17:25.606 Did you guys come out of that COVID experience better, stronger? 00:17:26.615 --> 00:17:30.315 I think that the agency is in a better space. 00:17:30.635 --> 00:17:33.435 Again, the difficulties, as Doug outlined there for a minute, 00:17:33.615 --> 00:17:39.355 of challenges with relationships and the internal workings of communication and collaboration. 00:17:39.575 --> 00:17:47.215 We have come a long way on the ability to both work in the space and time that 00:17:47.215 --> 00:17:51.175 the rest of our society had to work into in the virtual space.

00:17:51.735 --> 00:17:56.715 And we've learned ways to do things. And in that, we found efficiencies along the way, 00:17:57.035 --> 00:18:02.275 found efficiencies in both some of the process that are necessary and required 00:18:02.275 --> 00:18:05.295 to make sure that the government agency gets things right, 00:18:05.455 --> 00:18:11.495 but also in ways to make the job of ultimately the compliance officer or the 00:18:11.495 --> 00:18:16.435 person working in a policy office here in the national office does their day-to-day work. 00:18:16.435 --> 00:18:20.175 And making sure they have, again, the tools they need, the ability to do things, 00:18:20.315 --> 00:18:26.495 and the capacity to make decisions and do things knowing that when we get it 00:18:26.495 --> 00:18:27.455 right, it's going to be great. 00:18:27.595 --> 00:18:29.255 And when we get it wrong, we're going to make the correction, 00:18:29.455 --> 00:18:30.415 fix it, and move it forward.

00:18:30.995 --> 00:18:34.935 One of the things that's noteworthy, I think, is in the outside world, 00:18:34.935 --> 00:18:42.555 what the whole COVID experience did was really redefine the idea of how organizations handle uncertainty. 00:18:43.315 --> 00:18:48.095 And that's kind of what I hear you guys saying as well, is that uncertainty, 00:18:48.095 --> 00:18:51.315 because it's uncertain, not the smartest thing I've ever said, 00:18:51.415 --> 00:18:53.295 but I mean, it's an uncertain outcome. 00:18:53.295 --> 00:18:58.595 It really did sort of change the way we thought about occupational safety and health. 00:18:58.735 --> 00:19:03.755 And we did move from something we did in order to be compliant to something 00:19:03.755 --> 00:19:08.935 we had to have a capacity to expand and contract as needed based upon whatever 00:19:08.935 --> 00:19:12.435 situational environmental issues existed in the process.

00:19:12.615 --> 00:19:17.975 And that was fundamental, I think, in starting a conversation in the outside 00:19:17.975 --> 00:19:21.175 world on kind of a new definition of safety. 00:19:21.635 --> 00:19:24.895 How did that reflect its way into the agency? 00:19:25.095 --> 00:19:28.335 Because you were playing by the same crap we were playing with. 00:19:28.535 --> 00:19:29.915 So it had to have some impact.

00:19:30.615 --> 00:19:33.975 Yeah, and I think that's a great point. 00:19:35.315 --> 00:19:41.135 One constraint that the agency has is kind of the structure both from the OSHA 00:19:41.135 --> 00:19:46.675 Act itself and some of the requirements that we have in place, 00:19:46.955 --> 00:19:52.735 both legally and fundamentally or organizationally that are just in place, 00:19:52.895 --> 00:19:58.395 that makes sure we go through a process to get to the right end of review and things. 00:19:58.395 --> 00:20:06.095 But we did learn from that of how to make efficiencies in the work and really 00:20:06.095 --> 00:20:08.475 get things to the right end. 00:20:09.223 --> 00:20:17.003 Within a timeframe that's reasonable instead of taking a longer path that kind 00:20:17.003 --> 00:20:20.403 of historically a government entity would have taken.

00:20:20.683 --> 00:20:26.383 Did you notice a difference in sort of the way safety was being defined at a 00:20:26.383 --> 00:20:27.463 level within the agency? 00:20:27.623 --> 00:20:31.723 Whereas I think safety, and you guys correct me if I'm wrong on this, 00:20:31.923 --> 00:20:36.643 but safety was something that really involved compliance sort of pre-COVID. 00:20:36.643 --> 00:20:41.183 But it was seen as something that we do to a level of governance, right? 00:20:41.283 --> 00:20:46.323 That's the whole reason unlucky lot of the regulator to now this notion that 00:20:46.323 --> 00:20:47.623 safety is more of a capacity.

00:20:48.303 --> 00:20:49.883 Did you guys feel that as well? 00:20:50.723 --> 00:20:54.783 Yeah. So I think there's maybe two parts to this. And the first is that the 00:20:54.783 --> 00:21:00.583 compliance enforcement of whether or not we're complying with the requirements is still in place.

00:21:00.663 --> 00:21:04.843 And particularly in responses to when things go bad, when there's a fake malady, 00:21:04.883 --> 00:21:06.163 a serious injury, a complaint. 00:21:06.163 --> 00:21:09.703 Somebody saying there's there's an imminent danger situation you 00:21:09.703 --> 00:21:12.543 know that still has its place and it helps us to level 00:21:12.543 --> 00:21:18.103 the playing field across employers to make sure that that those that choose 00:21:18.103 --> 00:21:24.003 to do things right are are at least being closely tailed by those who may not 00:21:24.003 --> 00:21:28.983 have that same commitment that they feel that the enforcement is there if they 00:21:28.983 --> 00:21:31.763 don't do it right so then they will do better. 00:21:32.183 --> 00:21:37.303 But then in parts of the operation, particularly in our outreach and compliance assistance, 00:21:37.823 --> 00:21:42.223 some of the other proactive items that are in place at the agency, 00:21:42.223 --> 00:21:46.703 we have been able to advance that ball by saying, 00:21:46.983 --> 00:21:53.283 hey, let's look at how do we make the management system work to ensure the capacity is there. 00:21:53.323 --> 00:21:58.863 When failure happens, people still go home after the And I think if I can be 00:21:58.863 --> 00:22:03.323 so bold, I think what you guys did was it gave you an opportunity to really 00:22:03.323 --> 00:22:07.183 shift a lot of the discussion to the proactive part.

00:22:07.765 --> 00:22:11.505 Which it traditionally had not been, nor should it have been. 00:22:11.665 --> 00:22:15.405 I mean, I mean that in a loving way because the agency was really more of a 00:22:15.405 --> 00:22:16.685 compliance enforcement agency. 00:22:16.865 --> 00:22:21.085 And I think one of the things that this period of uncertainty did for us, 00:22:21.205 --> 00:22:25.405 that COVID did for us, was kind of reemphasize the importance of compliance. 00:22:25.525 --> 00:22:27.185 It didn't make compliance less important.

00:22:27.445 --> 00:22:33.385 It made compliance almost more important as a foundation upon which capacity 00:22:33.385 --> 00:22:34.605 is built within organizations. 00:22:35.185 --> 00:22:38.865 At least from the outside in, that's what we saw. 00:22:39.605 --> 00:22:48.965 I think that's certainly true of the people who were really diligent and more 00:22:48.965 --> 00:22:53.745 sophisticated when it comes to health and safety and good infection control 00:22:53.745 --> 00:22:55.305 practices in the case of COVID. 00:22:56.345 --> 00:23:04.785 I spent those early days in California, Cal OSHA, and it It was unique in that 00:23:04.785 --> 00:23:09.685 it's my only experience where employers were coming to us and saying, tell us what to do.

00:23:09.785 --> 00:23:13.005 Tell us what the rules are. Tell us how to comply. 00:23:15.825 --> 00:23:21.165 And rather than asking for flexibility, which now that changed a little bit 00:23:21.165 --> 00:23:22.185 when we started doing rulemaking. 00:23:22.365 --> 00:23:27.665 But that was the initial response because there was so much uncertainty.

be. 00:23:27.865 --> 00:23:37.185 And you saw the maturation of the response as people got better information. 00:23:38.005 --> 00:23:43.445 What I'm glad that we, by and large, avoided, and I hope that we continue to 00:23:43.445 --> 00:23:44.665 avoid, and I hope it doesn't, 00:23:45.818 --> 00:23:52.158 kind of infiltrate the health and safety community is the level of subjectivity 00:23:52.158 --> 00:24:00.098 around COVID prevention that you saw in the kind of public debate and social 00:24:00.098 --> 00:24:02.178 media discussions and now, you know, 00:24:02.358 --> 00:24:10.918 and so forth, where there was a real departure from accepted evidence-based 00:24:10.918 --> 00:24:17.438 approaches and a real departure from accepted risk analysis. 00:24:17.858 --> 00:24:29.878 So I think it's a very positive and a sign of the resilience and professionalism 00:24:29.878 --> 00:24:35.878 of our community that that has not really been something that's carried over into health and safety.

00:24:35.998 --> 00:24:40.538 And I think that point's really well taken in that I think you're exactly right. 00:24:40.918 --> 00:24:47.078 What I think is even more interesting is how those ideas around COVID and infection 00:24:47.078 --> 00:24:54.098 and that control part also then tend to really influence the occupational safety side of the house. 00:24:54.238 --> 00:25:01.898 So you saw a richer understanding of the importance of capacity in the occupational 00:25:01.898 --> 00:25:03.058 safety side of the house. 00:25:03.058 --> 00:25:08.438 And so suddenly our discussions were less about measuring injuries and much 00:25:08.438 --> 00:25:13.478 more in tune with measuring the capacity to have uncertainty on an occupational side.

00:25:13.598 --> 00:25:17.578 So COVID aside, but I think COVID is what started the conversation. 00:25:17.978 --> 00:25:22.278 And I'm not sure, and you guys jump in and tell me, I'm not sure we would have 00:25:22.278 --> 00:25:25.578 had that conversation had we not had the COVID experience. 00:25:25.578 --> 00:25:33.218 But, I mean, it's a very real fact that the definition of safety as a capacity 00:25:33.218 --> 00:25:37.078 has changed, and it's changed within your agency. 00:25:37.078 --> 00:25:41.658 It's definitely changed within the regional offices.

You hear a different discussion 00:25:41.658 --> 00:25:45.238 now than you would have heard certainly eight years ago. 00:25:46.385 --> 00:25:50.785 I mean, nobody asked me what OSHA is anymore. Isn't that interesting? Yeah.

00:25:51.765 --> 00:25:55.405 And Todd, you know, I think it's important to also point out that this 00:25:55.405 --> 00:26:00.445 conversation is happening and that view of OSHA providing for some space for 00:26:00.445 --> 00:26:06.345 those workplaces and employers and workers who are talking about expanding the 00:26:06.345 --> 00:26:10.745 capacity to make sure that they have that ability is taking place in a time 00:26:10.745 --> 00:26:13.865 over this time period of at least the last three years. 00:26:13.985 --> 00:26:16.485 It took a little bit of time to get this up and moving. But when, 00:26:16.605 --> 00:26:21.385 if you look at purely the enforcement numbers out of OSHA, they were significant. 00:26:21.385 --> 00:26:25.265 And so there still was, there's still a lot of work to be done.

00:26:25.625 --> 00:26:31.625 There's still too many serious injuries, fatalities that OSHA has the obligation 00:26:31.625 --> 00:26:35.665 and the need to get out and be part of the equation to resolve the issues, 00:26:35.825 --> 00:26:37.905 the problems, the challenges and fix those hazards. 00:26:38.205 --> 00:26:42.745 So