PAPod 532 - Lessons from Leadership with Doug Parker and Jim Frederick

Show Transcript

WEBVTT

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I'm so excited to have you guys on, and I think this is a really great opportunity.

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What do you guys want to accomplish in this?

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Well, good question. I mean, I think we can talk about some of the things we

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thought we got right. Yeah.

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And we could talk about some of

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the work I think we wish we were around to complete. Down set. Down set.

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Music.

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Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Pre-Accident Investigation Podcast.

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It's me, Todd Conklin. How are you?

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Well, it has been an exciting time, and I've kind of been really excited to share this podcast,

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even though I know already it's a two-parter because we couldn't hold our conversation

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to 20 minutes. That was not going to happen.

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I knew it was not going to happen. I failed. It's my fault. I'm taking the heat for it completely.

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But I've been really excited to get this pod up and out. I needed to wait for

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a transition to happen, and I did.

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And we're going to talk to former OSHA administrator Doug Parker,

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most recent OSHA administrator, and Deputy Secretary Doug Parker,

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and then Jim Frederick, the OSHA leadership team.

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And what this is today, and really the next one as well,

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is really an opportunity just to sit down and talk about what it was like to

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work in OSHA, what it's like to be in that level of governance.

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What did they feel good about? What did they accomplish? What happened well?

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I mean, it's just an open conversation.

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And these guys are the greatest. I mean, they're just the greatest.

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Because they didn't make any rules. They didn't have any rules.

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They just said, yeah, let's get together and talk.

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Because I really wanted to just sort of best encapsulate what James Reason calls

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the unfortunate lot of the regulator.

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And you'll hear me kind of refer to that a little bit because when you're providing

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regulation, enforcement matters.

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I mean, it matters a lot. It's like when we talk about the difference between

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accountability and discipline.

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Discipline matters. Enforcement is an important leadership tool.

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It's an important governance tool, just as discipline is an important leadership tool.

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But it's not the only tool. And in fact, it shouldn't be the first tool we use.

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And you'll hear that reflected in the discussion we have around what it's like

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to be in that position, what it's like to see the world from that level, from the OSHA level.

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And for those of us in the United States, I actually think it's a really interesting

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snapshot into the world in which we live.

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For the rest of you guys around the globe, I can't not think you won't learn

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something about the governance, compliance, and regulations that exist in your world as well.

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Because it is really an interesting line to walk.

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Because you want the world to get better. You want fewer people to die and fewer

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injuries. No question about it. Everybody's got the same goal.

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It's the role we play in the larger picture that becomes, well,

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in this case, you'll have to be your judge for yourself, but kind of interesting to talk about.

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Plus the fact that I just find both Doug and Jim incredibly warm and open and

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giving, and they really do want to share their journey.

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And who doesn't want that? I mean, if you think about it, that is kind of what

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it's all about. How are you?

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How's your journey? Because your journey is just as complex and just as meaningful as anybody else's.

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And we're all sort of in this together. We're all kind of pulling together to

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make the world a better place. And it's easy to get discouraged,

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but it's also just as easy to, I think, be encouraged.

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And I've always really thought, at least for me, I can't speak for you,

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that choosing to see what we're doing to change the world and make it better

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is a much healthier way to think about,

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the future. You know, instead of worrying about what has happened,

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we should probably be more fixated on what will happen next.

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And I think that's actually a really encouraging message globally,

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not just in the United States, not just in Canada, not just in Denmark,

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but globally, because there's just so much going on.

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And I think what we do next will make a huge difference.

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At least that's kind of where I am.

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And, you know, it's the middle of winter in New Mexico.

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So I have tried my hardest to sneak away to warm places.

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But every place I go, they always say this. It's never been this cold.

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It's not this cold. It's never this cold in Florida.

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So when I sneak away, I'm just taking the cold weather with me.

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So I might as well just stay home, just hunker down, you know,

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get a bunch of snacks because snacks make everything better and just see what happens next.

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We've got so much to talk about, and I will share so much with you,

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but I'm mostly excited to actually start this conversation.

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Now, this is a two-parter, so this is part one of a conversation we had a couple

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weeks ago, and I think you'll enjoy kind of the direction the conversation takes.

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You can sort of interpret it and think about it and kind of decipher where we're

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heading next on this journey we're all taking together.

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This is former OSHA Administrator Doug Parker and Jim Frederick,

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the Assistant OSHA Administrator, in a conversation just for us.

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The time you guys have spent has been a really important time,

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I think, developmentally for occupational safety and health,

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really globally, but certainly in the United States.

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But I also think it's it's been a time of very, dare I say it again,

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interesting challenges.

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And and that's been kind of a part of your guys's story, the legacy that you're leaving.

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As we move on in time. What do you kind of take out of this?

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What is your overall take on the time you had?

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First of all, just it was, are we rolling yet? Yeah, we're rolling. Okay.

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Unless you don't want to be, and then we don't have to. No, no,

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I just wasn't. I just did not. Okay.

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So first of all, it's just

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an incredible honor to be in a job like this and

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I don't think that you fully appreciate the

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gravity of it until it comes

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to a close in some ways because it's such

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an incredible opportunity and you look back at all the great things that that

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you feel good about and if you are the kind of person who tends to be also pushing

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for more and self-critical and so forth,

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you also think about how much more you wish you could have gotten done and the

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things that you hope continue, like our work on safety and health management systems,

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some of our innovations around enforcement,

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wishing we had more time to work on some whistleblower reforms.

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Then there's our rulemaking.

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There's all kinds of things and then of course internal work that we began that's

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under process and that i hope continues to sort of make it a stronger organization

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internally jim anything to add.

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Yes and to to reflect back todd you know on starting this job during the pandemic was,

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incredibly interesting to say the least it was very difficult you know it was

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at a point in time where we were still pretty well on lockdown across this country

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on inauguration day just four years ago.

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And to see this work in the context of where that started and where we are today,

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there have been some huge, huge successful advances out of this agency.

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But two of the things that I always take away are, one, the importance of kind

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of the interplay between OSHA and the health and safety profession.

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And that symbiotic relationship is such that, you know, one really doesn't exist

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without the other and that we need each other to make certain that the other

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part does the best they can.

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And I think we've done a number of things in that arena.

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And secondly, it's just the importance of the people that make decisions.

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The work that happens here, it all matters. And it's really about the people

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that come in every day for their career,

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be it a few years they spend at the agency, or in some cases,

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it's almost 40 years that a few people have retired here in the last few weeks

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who have almost 40 years of seniority.

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And it's just incredible because the commitment, the dedication,

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and also the skill set that they have brought to their work is just phenomenal

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in all regards. the true meaning of public service.

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We see it each and every day with the staff walking down the hall.

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And that's a remarkable part of, I think, the story you guys tell, for sure.

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The challenge is, is what part of, so I always am reminded of James Reason,

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who said, the unlucky lot of the regulator.

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And his premise behind that is that you play this really interesting role where

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you have to be both partners in success and play an active role in governance at the same time.

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And so there really is this interesting balance that you guys had to find pretty early.

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And the agency, I mean, maybe because I'm an old man, I can say this,

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but it's still relatively new.

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So the opportunity to do things and move the agency in a new direction was really wide open to you guys.

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And you worked hard to do that. That was a remarkable part of what happened.

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What surprised both of you when you came into this job that you thought was

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kind of remarkable and unexpected?

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Well, I think when we talked last, I discussed a

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little bit about the relationship between the national office and the regional

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office and how the dynamics of the organization is kind of unique compared to

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other organizations that I have worked with.

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It's a little bit more of a federalist type of system where you've got many

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OSHAs that are operating throughout the field rather than a pure hierarchy.

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And then you have two deputies if you're the head of the agency that each have

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respective functions, but it's all carried out in the field.

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So you've got these various dynamics that are great potential for synergy and

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cooperation, and there are also potentials for silos.

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And I think that what surprised me was that, I don't know if it's so much of

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a, I don't know if I'd call it a surprise, but it certainly really gave it more

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thought after I arrived.

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I think the absence of a permanent leader for some time had really eroded,

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and COVID and being remote as well, had eroded what I think was a stronger relationship

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in an earlier time at OSHA between how the field worked with the national office

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and how the regions worked together.

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And so there was some things to overcome.

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And I think also, I don't know if I underestimated, but it really surprised

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me how palpable it was, the effect of the prior four years on morale,

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and in the department more generally,

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but also at OSHA, the level of...

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Of, of need of leadership and trust building, you know, that the trust building

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that we had to do with, with, with staff was really, you can't kind of over, overstate it.

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And it was, and I think it was just from, from the absence of,

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of confirmed leadership over a period of time.

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It's not a criticism of, of the folks who were acting there and I think did,

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did the best job that they could the prior administration, but it was broader

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issues of leadership at the department that were at odds sometimes with OSHA's

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mission and an absence of a confirmed agency head,

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which really makes a bigger difference than you might imagine if you're not in government.

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It seems like that would be, so it seems like that the trust building internally

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would dramatically and directly impact the trust building externally.

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So the internal trust you build as an agency will then find its way to the trust

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you have with the people you serve throughout the nation in their complex jobs.

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So that makes total sense to me. And that opportunity you guys had to come in

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and provide really that ability to restore that trust and redirect leadership

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was a pretty interesting opportunity.

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What was your initial direction? What was your guys' goal as you were coming in four years ago?

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Well, it was a little bit of a blur at first because of COVID,

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right? So there were a lot of immediate needs.

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And really, Jim can speak to that better than I because he was here from day

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one bearing the brunt of that.

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But when I arrived some 10 months later after the inauguration.

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My goal was to get input from a relatively small team of people about what our

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strategic priorities ought to be.

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I mean, we have about 18 executives at OSHA.

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It's a little bit of an unwieldy size of a group for formation of a strategic vision,

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but we did pull representatives from the region and national offices together

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with our political staff to talk about how we might put certain things in motion.

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And interestingly, the things that really stood out were much more about building

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the organization internally than any particular external initiatives.

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And I think that speaks exactly to what your last point was,

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that there was a need and a thirst for organizational strength.

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That's, of course, a prerequisite, a kind of fundamental and foundational aspect

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of whatever initiatives you want to launch if you want them to be successful.

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Did the COVID work redefine you guys? What'd you learn from the COVID experience?

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Because it's an important part of the story.

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Why don't you take that? Yeah. And Todd, I think that, as Doug alluded to,

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that first 10 months for the first year and a half, but particularly that first

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10 months of this administration,

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truly the primary objectives were outlined almost all around response to COVID.

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And so, you know, that kind of defined that first period of time and the significant

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amount of work that was done.

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You know, there were projects that were in there that in normal government timeframes

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might have taken, been measured in years that we did in weeks to get out the door.

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And so it then leading to your follow-up, it really did help us to define a couple of things.

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One is, you know, kind of some of the messages we've taken away from how we

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can do the regulation part of this work more quickly, more effectively, and more efficiently,

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taking into account important input from stakeholders along the way to make sure we get it right.

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And then secondly, also in the operations in the field, making sure that, one.

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We were taking care of, making sure we were taking care of the hazards that

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the staff were facing when they were going into what at the time was still somewhat

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of an unknown hazard at the workplace through the internal safety management system here.

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And then, you know, secondly, making sure we were giving them the tools to do

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their work as the enforcement entity following a complaint or otherwise at an

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inspection to address the hazards they were seeing in the workplace related

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to the COVID-19 pandemic.

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Did you guys come out of that COVID experience better, stronger?

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I think that the agency is in a better space.

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Again, the difficulties, as Doug outlined there for a minute,

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of challenges with relationships and the internal workings of communication and collaboration.

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We have come a long way on the ability to both work in the space and time that

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the rest of our society had to work into in the virtual space.

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And we've learned ways to do things. And in that, we found efficiencies along the way,

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found efficiencies in both some of the process that are necessary and required

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to make sure that the government agency gets things right,

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but also in ways to make the job of ultimately the compliance officer or the

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person working in a policy office here in the national office does their day-to-day work.

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And making sure they have, again, the tools they need, the ability to do things,

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and the capacity to make decisions and do things knowing that when we get it

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right, it's going to be great.

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And when we get it wrong, we're going to make the correction,

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fix it, and move it forward.

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One of the things that's noteworthy, I think, is in the outside world,

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what the whole COVID experience did was really redefine the idea of how organizations handle uncertainty.

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And that's kind of what I hear you guys saying as well, is that uncertainty,

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because it's uncertain, not the smartest thing I've ever said,

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but I mean, it's an uncertain outcome.

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It really did sort of change the way we thought about occupational safety and health.

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And we did move from something we did in order to be compliant to something

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we had to have a capacity to expand and contract as needed based upon whatever

00:19:08.935 --> 00:19:12.435
situational environmental issues existed in the process.

00:19:12.615 --> 00:19:17.975
And that was fundamental, I think, in starting a conversation in the outside

00:19:17.975 --> 00:19:21.175
world on kind of a new definition of safety.

00:19:21.635 --> 00:19:24.895
How did that reflect its way into the agency?

00:19:25.095 --> 00:19:28.335
Because you were playing by the same crap we were playing with.

00:19:28.535 --> 00:19:29.915
So it had to have some impact.

00:19:30.615 --> 00:19:33.975
Yeah, and I think that's a great point.

00:19:35.315 --> 00:19:41.135
One constraint that the agency has is kind of the structure both from the OSHA

00:19:41.135 --> 00:19:46.675
Act itself and some of the requirements that we have in place,

00:19:46.955 --> 00:19:52.735
both legally and fundamentally or organizationally that are just in place,

00:19:52.895 --> 00:19:58.395
that makes sure we go through a process to get to the right end of review and things.

00:19:58.395 --> 00:20:06.095
But we did learn from that of how to make efficiencies in the work and really

00:20:06.095 --> 00:20:08.475
get things to the right end.

00:20:09.223 --> 00:20:17.003
Within a timeframe that's reasonable instead of taking a longer path that kind

00:20:17.003 --> 00:20:20.403
of historically a government entity would have taken.

00:20:20.683 --> 00:20:26.383
Did you notice a difference in sort of the way safety was being defined at a

00:20:26.383 --> 00:20:27.463
level within the agency?

00:20:27.623 --> 00:20:31.723
Whereas I think safety, and you guys correct me if I'm wrong on this,

00:20:31.923 --> 00:20:36.643
but safety was something that really involved compliance sort of pre-COVID.

00:20:36.643 --> 00:20:41.183
But it was seen as something that we do to a level of governance, right?

00:20:41.283 --> 00:20:46.323
That's the whole reason unlucky lot of the regulator to now this notion that

00:20:46.323 --> 00:20:47.623
safety is more of a capacity.

00:20:48.303 --> 00:20:49.883
Did you guys feel that as well?

00:20:50.723 --> 00:20:54.783
Yeah. So I think there's maybe two parts to this. And the first is that the

00:20:54.783 --> 00:21:00.583
compliance enforcement of whether or not we're complying with the requirements is still in place.

00:21:00.663 --> 00:21:04.843
And particularly in responses to when things go bad, when there's a fake malady,

00:21:04.883 --> 00:21:06.163
a serious injury, a complaint.

00:21:06.163 --> 00:21:09.703
Somebody saying there's there's an imminent danger situation you

00:21:09.703 --> 00:21:12.543
know that still has its place and it helps us to level

00:21:12.543 --> 00:21:18.103
the playing field across employers to make sure that that those that choose

00:21:18.103 --> 00:21:24.003
to do things right are are at least being closely tailed by those who may not

00:21:24.003 --> 00:21:28.983
have that same commitment that they feel that the enforcement is there if they

00:21:28.983 --> 00:21:31.763
don't do it right so then they will do better.

00:21:32.183 --> 00:21:37.303
But then in parts of the operation, particularly in our outreach and compliance assistance,

00:21:37.823 --> 00:21:42.223
some of the other proactive items that are in place at the agency,

00:21:42.223 --> 00:21:46.703
we have been able to advance that ball by saying,

00:21:46.983 --> 00:21:53.283
hey, let's look at how do we make the management system work to ensure the capacity is there.

00:21:53.323 --> 00:21:58.863
When failure happens, people still go home after the And I think if I can be

00:21:58.863 --> 00:22:03.323
so bold, I think what you guys did was it gave you an opportunity to really

00:22:03.323 --> 00:22:07.183
shift a lot of the discussion to the proactive part.

00:22:07.765 --> 00:22:11.505
Which it traditionally had not been, nor should it have been.

00:22:11.665 --> 00:22:15.405
I mean, I mean that in a loving way because the agency was really more of a

00:22:15.405 --> 00:22:16.685
compliance enforcement agency.

00:22:16.865 --> 00:22:21.085
And I think one of the things that this period of uncertainty did for us,

00:22:21.205 --> 00:22:25.405
that COVID did for us, was kind of reemphasize the importance of compliance.

00:22:25.525 --> 00:22:27.185
It didn't make compliance less important.

00:22:27.445 --> 00:22:33.385
It made compliance almost more important as a foundation upon which capacity

00:22:33.385 --> 00:22:34.605
is built within organizations.

00:22:35.185 --> 00:22:38.865
At least from the outside in, that's what we saw.

00:22:39.605 --> 00:22:48.965
I think that's certainly true of the people who were really diligent and more

00:22:48.965 --> 00:22:53.745
sophisticated when it comes to health and safety and good infection control

00:22:53.745 --> 00:22:55.305
practices in the case of COVID.

00:22:56.345 --> 00:23:04.785
I spent those early days in California, Cal OSHA, and it It was unique in that

00:23:04.785 --> 00:23:09.685
it's my only experience where employers were coming to us and saying, tell us what to do.

00:23:09.785 --> 00:23:13.005
Tell us what the rules are. Tell us how to comply.

00:23:15.825 --> 00:23:21.165
And rather than asking for flexibility, which now that changed a little bit

00:23:21.165 --> 00:23:22.185
when we started doing rulemaking.

00:23:22.365 --> 00:23:27.665
But that was the initial response because there was so much uncertainty. be.

00:23:27.865 --> 00:23:37.185
And you saw the maturation of the response as people got better information.

00:23:38.005 --> 00:23:43.445
What I'm glad that we, by and large, avoided, and I hope that we continue to

00:23:43.445 --> 00:23:44.665
avoid, and I hope it doesn't,

00:23:45.818 --> 00:23:52.158
kind of infiltrate the health and safety community is the level of subjectivity

00:23:52.158 --> 00:24:00.098
around COVID prevention that you saw in the kind of public debate and social

00:24:00.098 --> 00:24:02.178
media discussions and now, you know,

00:24:02.358 --> 00:24:10.918
and so forth, where there was a real departure from accepted evidence-based

00:24:10.918 --> 00:24:17.438
approaches and a real departure from accepted risk analysis.

00:24:17.858 --> 00:24:29.878
So I think it's a very positive and a sign of the resilience and professionalism

00:24:29.878 --> 00:24:35.878
of our community that that has not really been something that's carried over into health and safety.

00:24:35.998 --> 00:24:40.538
And I think that point's really well taken in that I think you're exactly right.

00:24:40.918 --> 00:24:47.078
What I think is even more interesting is how those ideas around COVID and infection

00:24:47.078 --> 00:24:54.098
and that control part also then tend to really influence the occupational safety side of the house.

00:24:54.238 --> 00:25:01.898
So you saw a richer understanding of the importance of capacity in the occupational

00:25:01.898 --> 00:25:03.058
safety side of the house.

00:25:03.058 --> 00:25:08.438
And so suddenly our discussions were less about measuring injuries and much

00:25:08.438 --> 00:25:13.478
more in tune with measuring the capacity to have uncertainty on an occupational side.

00:25:13.598 --> 00:25:17.578
So COVID aside, but I think COVID is what started the conversation.

00:25:17.978 --> 00:25:22.278
And I'm not sure, and you guys jump in and tell me, I'm not sure we would have

00:25:22.278 --> 00:25:25.578
had that conversation had we not had the COVID experience.

00:25:25.578 --> 00:25:33.218
But, I mean, it's a very real fact that the definition of safety as a capacity

00:25:33.218 --> 00:25:37.078
has changed, and it's changed within your agency.

00:25:37.078 --> 00:25:41.658
It's definitely changed within the regional offices. You hear a different discussion

00:25:41.658 --> 00:25:45.238
now than you would have heard certainly eight years ago.

00:25:46.385 --> 00:25:50.785
I mean, nobody asked me what OSHA is anymore. Isn't that interesting? Yeah.

00:25:51.765 --> 00:25:55.405
And Todd, you know, I think it's important to also point out that this

00:25:55.405 --> 00:26:00.445
conversation is happening and that view of OSHA providing for some space for

00:26:00.445 --> 00:26:06.345
those workplaces and employers and workers who are talking about expanding the

00:26:06.345 --> 00:26:10.745
capacity to make sure that they have that ability is taking place in a time

00:26:10.745 --> 00:26:13.865
over this time period of at least the last three years.

00:26:13.985 --> 00:26:16.485
It took a little bit of time to get this up and moving. But when,

00:26:16.605 --> 00:26:21.385
if you look at purely the enforcement numbers out of OSHA, they were significant.

00:26:21.385 --> 00:26:25.265
And so there still was, there's still a lot of work to be done.

00:26:25.625 --> 00:26:31.625
There's still too many serious injuries, fatalities that OSHA has the obligation

00:26:31.625 --> 00:26:35.665
and the need to get out and be part of the equation to resolve the issues,

00:26:35.825 --> 00:26:37.905
the problems, the challenges and fix those hazards.

00:26:38.205 --> 00:26:42.745
So there's still the need for both sides of this equation. And I think that's

00:26:42.745 --> 00:26:43.845
a really important point.

00:26:43.885 --> 00:26:47.805
And I think one of the more interesting things that needs to be said,

00:26:47.905 --> 00:26:50.845
it should be said because it's a part of your guys' legacy,

00:26:51.065 --> 00:26:56.705
is that that uncertainty that you began with around COVID translated out to

00:26:56.705 --> 00:27:04.045
a much broader and I would suggest much more effective understanding of safety across the universe.

00:27:04.045 --> 00:27:06.425
Is compliance important? Absolutely.

00:27:06.765 --> 00:27:10.625
Are there too many injuries? Absolutely. Are we having new, creative.

00:27:11.365 --> 00:27:14.925
Forward-thinking discussions about different ways to see this? Yeah.

00:27:15.145 --> 00:27:19.385
And I would just suggest, and I could be wrong because I'm wrong on lots of

00:27:19.385 --> 00:27:24.285
stuff, but I would just suggest that part of that came from having to deal directly

00:27:24.285 --> 00:27:27.025
with uncertainty at the beginning of the story you guys tell.

00:27:32.445 --> 00:27:35.805
What'd you think i told you it's super

00:27:35.805 --> 00:27:39.025
interesting that line between sort of enforcement

00:27:39.025 --> 00:27:46.445
and progress is really an interesting thing to decipher and we're not done in

00:27:46.445 --> 00:27:53.725
fact stay tuned because i left you at a cliffhanger next week we'll finish this

00:27:53.725 --> 00:27:58.185
conversation and see where this all takes us this This is really fun,

00:27:58.185 --> 00:28:02.265
and I can't wait to talk to you again next week so you can hear the exciting

00:28:02.265 --> 00:28:03.965
conclusion of our conversation.

00:28:04.105 --> 00:28:08.365
Until then, be good to each other, learn from each other, have as much fun as

00:28:08.365 --> 00:28:12.385
you possibly can, and for goodness sakes, you guys, be safe.

00:28:13.680 --> 00:28:23.480
Music.