PAPod 533 - Exploring the Future with Doug Parker and Jim Frederick

WEBVTT 00:00:00.017 --> 00:00:07.277 Okay, everybody, this is part two of our conversation with Doug Parker and Jim Frederick. 00:00:07.657 --> 00:00:11.317 If you've not listened to part one, I'm not saying it's mandatory. 00:00:11.337 --> 00:00:15.677 I mean, because I don't want to boss you around, but it seems like it's something 00:00:15.677 --> 00:00:20.697 you'd want to do just to kind of catch up with where we're going to start, 00:00:20.797 --> 00:00:21.997 because we're going to start running. 00:00:22.237 --> 00:00:28.317 So here we go with part two.

Get ready. We'll be right back. 00:00:25.680 --> 00:00:37.520 Music. 00:00:36.037 --> 00:00:41.117 Hey everybody, Pre-Accident Podcast.

It's Todd Conklin and we're here. 00:00:41.517 --> 00:00:47.057 We're back to finish that conversation we had with Doug Parker and Jim Frederick. 00:00:47.417 --> 00:00:55.117 And I got so much positive, interesting feedback from you guys. 00:00:55.277 --> 00:00:56.937 I mean, it's kind of remarkable.

00:00:57.597 --> 00:01:04.197 I told you, I mean, I was really, I get kind of excited about these dumb podcasts anyway. 00:01:05.077 --> 00:01:08.237 And you shouldn't ask me why, because I don't know if I could tell you why. 00:01:08.777 --> 00:01:12.557 Except they're fun to do, and we've been doing them a long time. 00:01:12.757 --> 00:01:16.757 I mean, once you kind of break the 10-year mark, I don't know, 00:01:16.817 --> 00:01:18.737 it's just a different deal.

00:01:18.937 --> 00:01:21.157 I mean, it becomes more of a habit than a problem. 00:01:22.077 --> 00:01:25.277 And I've given myself a little vacation, because I don't know if you've noticed, 00:01:25.277 --> 00:01:29.817 but I've kind of softened back on the safety moment section because it was a 00:01:29.817 --> 00:01:31.237 lot of work for not very much payoff. 00:01:31.417 --> 00:01:34.857 I'll still do them. Don't get me wrong.

They're coming, but you know, 00:01:34.977 --> 00:01:37.017 I'm, I'm giving myself a break. 00:01:37.297 --> 00:01:40.177 That's why that's the good thing about getting older. 00:01:40.197 --> 00:01:43.557 If you haven't sort of figured this out, the great thing about getting older 00:01:43.557 --> 00:01:46.857 is you kind of stop doing stuff that you don't want to do anymore. 00:01:47.357 --> 00:01:49.937 That's something to look forward.

There's a lot of downside to it. 00:01:50.057 --> 00:01:54.097 Like you have to urinate all the time. I mean, we can talk about the downside 00:01:54.097 --> 00:01:58.437 a bunch, but the good side is you do kind of become a little more selective 00:01:58.437 --> 00:02:00.437 in how you spend your time. 00:02:00.697 --> 00:02:04.997 And one of the things that I value highly is the time I spend with you on this podcast.

00:02:05.477 --> 00:02:12.297 And I really value the opportunity to talk to people who move what we do forward. 00:02:13.002 --> 00:02:17.322 And that's really what I tried to capture in this conversation. 00:02:17.382 --> 00:02:18.942 And you've heard the first part. 00:02:19.162 --> 00:02:22.242 And again, the feedback I got is crazy.

00:02:22.522 --> 00:02:27.342 I mean, it was a very fun conversation. And I kind of cut the fun parts out 00:02:27.342 --> 00:02:33.062 because we did spend a lot of time talking about the streets being blocked and how cold it was. 00:02:33.222 --> 00:02:37.222 And I mean, you know, shitty chat because you kind of got to warm into the conversation. 00:02:37.382 --> 00:02:41.882 That's not as vital, but it's a big part of what we talk about.

00:02:41.882 --> 00:02:52.842 But this next section, I really like because it's going to help illustrate kind of the next steps, 00:02:52.842 --> 00:02:58.222 the future, what we can do to continue moving forward. 00:02:58.422 --> 00:03:02.062 And that part, I think, is – that was a harder part of the conversation. 00:03:02.062 --> 00:03:03.682 Not for me. It's pretty easy for me.

00:03:03.802 --> 00:03:07.382 But I think it was a difficult part of the conversation and part that I really 00:03:07.382 --> 00:03:11.342 embraced. And what I found so interesting is so did Doug and Jim. 00:03:11.882 --> 00:03:16.502 They really embraced the opportunity. And this was a good use of time.

00:03:16.702 --> 00:03:22.342 And I think you probably, well, the feedback I got from you guys is people absolutely agreed. 00:03:22.502 --> 00:03:25.562 But I think you're going to agree, especially as we close this out. 00:03:25.702 --> 00:03:29.462 So without much further ado, this is the part two section. If you've not heard 00:03:29.462 --> 00:03:33.282 part one, you might want to sort of do that.

That might be helpful. 00:03:33.522 --> 00:03:35.922 Although I don't know if it's necessary. It's up to you. 00:03:36.242 --> 00:03:41.362 But this is the part two where we kind of talk about the look ahead.

00:03:41.882 --> 00:03:44.362 I don't know what else to call it other than the look ahead. 00:03:44.702 --> 00:03:49.402 And I think you'll find it to be interesting and charming and kind of fun. 00:03:49.682 --> 00:03:52.642 Thanks for listening. Tell your friends anything I can do to help you.

00:03:52.802 --> 00:03:54.262 Give me a call. I'm here to do it. 00:03:54.602 --> 00:03:58.582 You know, whatever. You need to take my, you don't even have to call me.

00:03:58.862 --> 00:04:00.882 Just take the stuff and use it. That's what I'd say. 00:04:01.262 --> 00:04:03.862 That's easier because then you're not bugging me and I'm not bugging you. 00:04:03.982 --> 00:04:07.522 So it works perfectly.

Until then, listen carefully to part two. 00:04:08.348 --> 00:04:15.128 Honorable Douglas Pucker and the amazing Jim Frederick on governance and what 00:04:15.128 --> 00:04:16.988 the future is going to look like, maybe. 00:04:22.368 --> 00:04:26.008 What'd you guys get right? What are you most proud of?

00:04:27.108 --> 00:04:31.128 I think that I will add another factor 00:04:31.128 --> 00:04:34.628 to what I think has impacted that 00:04:34.628 --> 00:04:37.888 shift from compliance to best practices 00:04:37.888 --> 00:04:41.228 and that's our emphasis on heat when i 00:04:41.228 --> 00:04:44.308 go to and i and i and 00:04:44.308 --> 00:04:47.208 i don't mean to be taking all the credit for that as osha 00:04:47.208 --> 00:04:52.548 because i think it's been a collective effort but but our our work has been 00:04:52.548 --> 00:04:58.428 a major catalyst for it when i go you know when i go to shows when i go to conventions 00:04:58.428 --> 00:05:04.368 when when walking around the vendor booths and you see the interest in heat, 00:05:04.828 --> 00:05:10.068 the technology on heat, the way that that's driving innovation, 00:05:10.468 --> 00:05:13.328 the way that that's driving quest for solutions. 00:05:13.708 --> 00:05:18.088 When I talk to employers and I hear about support for the rule, 00:05:18.348 --> 00:05:21.368 when I hear them talking about all the things that they're already doing, 00:05:21.588 --> 00:05:26.148 and people excited to tell me about their solutions around heat, 00:05:26.308 --> 00:05:28.828 it's incredibly encouraging. 00:05:29.108 --> 00:05:33.908 And it's a really strong reflection of that proactive approach, 00:05:34.108 --> 00:05:38.448 that problem-solving approach, that model that you described. 00:05:38.628 --> 00:05:41.508 And I think that we will...

00:05:42.845 --> 00:05:49.785 We will in the long run get credit for that contribution, and it'll be more 00:05:49.785 --> 00:05:55.945 significant than even our rule proposal or our national emphasis program on heat. 00:05:56.185 --> 00:05:59.565 So that's one thing that I'm particularly proud of. 00:05:59.625 --> 00:06:06.845 I'm proud of the work that we've done internally to promote leadership and innovation 00:06:06.845 --> 00:06:13.605 within the organization because just like our external stakeholders are focused on compliance, 00:06:13.825 --> 00:06:16.865 we are very much focused on compliance for very understandable reasons. 00:06:17.965 --> 00:06:22.865 And we're not going to, you know, OSHA shouldn't shift away from a focus on compliance.

00:06:23.045 --> 00:06:30.045 But we've also really been encouraging our team and our staff to think innovatively and to. 00:06:30.645 --> 00:06:35.845 You know, in an ideal world, you'd be wearing both the inspector hat and the 00:06:35.845 --> 00:06:40.065 safety professional hat as you enter into a workplace so that you're, you know, 00:06:40.405 --> 00:06:43.385 you're providing solutions and you're engaged with that employer, 00:06:43.685 --> 00:06:45.625 you know, not just to issue citations, 00:06:45.785 --> 00:06:53.805 but to really leave that workplace safer than you found it rather than just 00:06:53.805 --> 00:06:56.425 focusing on issuing citations. 00:06:56.545 --> 00:07:00.905 And that's certainly still a work in progress, but I think that we've planted seeds for that. 00:07:00.905 --> 00:07:08.065 I think that's a super important point you bring up is that the kind of impression 00:07:08.065 --> 00:07:13.245 that we have in the outside world as stakeholders is you're starting to see 00:07:13.245 --> 00:07:16.965 a real relationship between enforcement and assurance.

00:07:17.485 --> 00:07:20.825 And that it's not just about enforcement. 00:07:21.185 --> 00:07:26.105 It's about actually making the workplace safer and better and assuring that 00:07:26.105 --> 00:07:29.785 those safer and better ideas are in place. And that line between enforcement 00:07:29.785 --> 00:07:35.985 and assurance is kind of a difficult, it's a fuzzy line, but it's a really important line. 00:07:36.245 --> 00:07:39.225 And let me just say it quickly before I think Jim has something to say, 00:07:39.345 --> 00:07:42.405 but, you know, it's not like this was our idea.

00:07:42.885 --> 00:07:47.245 You know, our role was really to create the space for our people to do this 00:07:47.245 --> 00:07:50.305 and for them to have permission to do it. 00:07:51.046 --> 00:07:56.566 Yeah, that's such an amazing point is the amount of resources and talent that 00:07:56.566 --> 00:08:03.226 you have being unleashed towards creative positive outcomes is a plus. Jim. 00:08:03.486 --> 00:08:06.446 Yeah, so I'd throw in two things I would throw in on this are.

00:08:06.726 --> 00:08:12.866 One, we, this agency has always talked about making sure the voice of workers are heard. 00:08:13.006 --> 00:08:16.226 And I think we have done a number of things. We could talk for an hour about 00:08:16.226 --> 00:08:19.746 the number of things that have been done, not just to make certain that the 00:08:19.746 --> 00:08:24.766 voice of workers are heard in the OSHA process from every part of the system, 00:08:24.946 --> 00:08:27.366 from rulemaking to enforcement and all things in between, 00:08:27.606 --> 00:08:34.046 but to really take into account and better convey to the regulated community 00:08:34.046 --> 00:08:38.186 the importance of the voice of workers, the institutional capacity and knowledge 00:08:38.186 --> 00:08:39.506 that workers bring to them. 00:08:39.506 --> 00:08:45.126 You know, it's what you and I have been talking about in our 20 years of knowing each other, Todd.

00:08:45.306 --> 00:08:51.966 And I think it's just important that we have left more capacity for OSHA to do that moving forward. 00:08:51.966 --> 00:08:56.326 And the second thing are the advances around health and safety management systems, 00:08:56.326 --> 00:09:01.246 because that conversation has an important place in the equation. 00:09:01.246 --> 00:09:07.066 And we have contributed in a number of places where we can to make certain that 00:09:07.066 --> 00:09:13.926 there's both a recognition of workplaces that are instituting good safety management systems at work, 00:09:13.986 --> 00:09:20.506 but also helping them to recognize what their needs are and how to get from 00:09:20.506 --> 00:09:22.406 point A to point B in that process. 00:09:22.406 --> 00:09:25.286 That's such an important point.

00:09:25.566 --> 00:09:31.026 And that changing understanding of the workers' role has been really an important 00:09:31.026 --> 00:09:37.626 and significant part of the changing discussion that I think you guys have been 00:09:37.626 --> 00:09:39.586 really at the forefront of. 00:09:39.586 --> 00:09:41.906 What do you see as the future? 00:09:43.546 --> 00:09:48.886 Don't predict what the next administration will do because we're terrible at 00:09:48.886 --> 00:09:55.086 that, but how do you see OSHA's role changing in the larger sense of... 00:09:55.611 --> 00:09:59.791 What do you see developing?

What do you see happening? What are you seeing inklings 00:09:59.791 --> 00:10:04.551 of in the field with your talented staff as we move forward? 00:10:05.731 --> 00:10:14.871 So I think that long run, where the uncertainty lies is not what a particular administration may do. 00:10:15.111 --> 00:10:21.111 But what the courts may do, because that has longer significant impact on the 00:10:21.111 --> 00:10:24.571 agency and on the administrative functions of government.

00:10:24.571 --> 00:10:32.971 And so one thing that OSHA may find itself having to do in the long term is 00:10:32.971 --> 00:10:40.471 to be adaptive when it comes to judicial interpretations of its authority, 00:10:40.471 --> 00:10:44.811 both in enforcement and in rulemaking. 00:10:44.811 --> 00:10:48.971 And so one of 00:10:48.971 --> 00:10:54.831 the things that I fear is that our compliance 00:10:54.831 --> 00:11:00.971 efforts and our enforcement efforts might someday lead to judicial restraints 00:11:00.971 --> 00:11:06.451 on the agency that will point us overall in the wrong direction in terms of 00:11:06.451 --> 00:11:12.111 health and safety because it would give people permission to be more lax. 00:11:12.111 --> 00:11:19.691 Because I do think that enforcement is a critical floor and that if people had 00:11:19.691 --> 00:11:23.771 more permission and more flexibility to skirt the rules, 00:11:23.911 --> 00:11:28.711 that it creates a moral hazard for some companies that that's not helpful. 00:11:28.711 --> 00:11:37.531 On the more positive side, I think that we see a lot of young talent coming into the agency.

00:11:37.991 --> 00:11:44.071 A lot of people with new ideas, more people with ideas. 00:11:45.474 --> 00:11:49.774 Language skills, bilingual workers, employees 00:11:49.774 --> 00:11:53.574 who have an interest in things like 00:11:53.574 --> 00:11:58.634 the social determinants of health and total worker health and a real interest 00:11:58.634 --> 00:12:06.994 in applying some of the things that they've learned more recently that take 00:12:06.994 --> 00:12:09.814 a broader view of health and safety and applying them in the workplace. 00:12:09.834 --> 00:12:14.814 So I'm really excited about the opportunities for the agency to innovate as 00:12:14.814 --> 00:12:17.254 these folks come up through the ranks. 00:12:17.514 --> 00:12:23.654 And it will be really incumbent upon the leadership, both from the frontline 00:12:23.654 --> 00:12:31.174 management up to make sure that people have the space to experiment and problem solve in the field.

00:12:31.254 --> 00:12:36.674 And I think that if the agency can do that, it can overcome a lot of challenges 00:12:36.674 --> 00:12:41.374 it may face, whether those are legal or budget resources or whatever it may be. 00:12:41.674 --> 00:12:45.114 And I think, and I think the other thing is that, that I think, 00:12:45.414 --> 00:12:51.134 you know, we're excited about is, is just trying to increase the engagement with external groups. 00:12:51.314 --> 00:12:55.614 So, so we've really pushed health and safety management systems, 00:12:55.794 --> 00:13:00.774 as Jim mentioned, and we've seen a tremendous positive response from groups 00:13:00.774 --> 00:13:05.234 like VBP and, and ASSP, you know, VPP. 00:13:05.674 --> 00:13:10.214 You know, even changed its, its mission statement in response to our engagement 00:13:10.214 --> 00:13:15.454 with them to have a broader view of how to bring health and safety management 00:13:15.454 --> 00:13:19.054 systems to employers that are not, you know, within the organization.

00:13:19.314 --> 00:13:25.274 And so, you know, that effort that we've made to leverage the professional community 00:13:25.274 --> 00:13:30.854 to themselves be, you know, evangelists with other employers for stronger health 00:13:30.854 --> 00:13:33.634 and safety and within their industries for stronger health and safety, 00:13:34.034 --> 00:13:36.474 there's a potential for that to really, you. 00:13:37.697 --> 00:13:41.397 To really grow. And then I can, I can talk more about worker participation in 00:13:41.397 --> 00:13:42.697 a second, but I'll hand it over to Jim. 00:13:42.917 --> 00:13:46.797 Well, and I'd just add in the, the one thing I would add in is I think we had 00:13:46.797 --> 00:13:50.397 both, both some small successful examples of this, 00:13:50.497 --> 00:13:56.577 but also a number of places where this is seated to really grow the ideas around 00:13:56.577 --> 00:14:00.757 the concepts that are being talked about across other parts of, 00:14:00.877 --> 00:14:03.377 of regulators about regulating differently so that, 00:14:03.557 --> 00:14:08.677 that the mission of this agency has reached in the efficiencies that we can 00:14:08.677 --> 00:14:10.477 find to get there quicker, 00:14:10.877 --> 00:14:13.777 better, and more effectively engaging workers.

00:14:14.457 --> 00:14:19.297 Commitment from employers, and ways to find and fix hazards in the workplaces. 00:14:19.697 --> 00:14:23.877 I think we're kind of right at the precipice of that, and we could see that 00:14:23.877 --> 00:14:30.217 continue regardless of who's sitting in these couple of chairs that Doug and I currently occupy now. 00:14:30.557 --> 00:14:34.217 And I think part of your legacy, it needs to be said to you guys, 00:14:34.337 --> 00:14:38.817 is that you really created the permission to be more innovative. 00:14:39.077 --> 00:14:42.217 I mean, that's definitely part of what you guys carried into it.

00:14:42.297 --> 00:14:47.857 And I would suggest it was a direct result of all the crap that you guys came into. 00:14:48.417 --> 00:14:52.697 COVID is the one that's in my brain right now, but it allowed you to really 00:14:52.697 --> 00:14:56.717 change the dialogue and for the agency to be seen as more innovative than it 00:14:56.717 --> 00:14:58.997 probably ever has been in its history. 00:14:59.117 --> 00:15:05.317 That's a really important piece of data that you guys can carry forward as this 00:15:05.317 --> 00:15:07.737 transition happens. I think that's valuable.

00:15:07.937 --> 00:15:12.737 And I think you're right on target, both of you guys, and I appreciate it and 00:15:12.737 --> 00:15:20.597 want to thank you for it because I do think you've allowed the worker to participate in a different way. 00:15:20.777 --> 00:15:26.357 And I would suggest I'm pretty biased, but a more effective way in this discussion, 00:15:26.637 --> 00:15:31.197 not just at the local organizational level, but really at a more global level, 00:15:31.197 --> 00:15:32.397 at a more national level. 00:15:32.497 --> 00:15:36.337 And that's a really important piece of information that we should talk about. 00:15:37.337 --> 00:15:42.077 I think that's the other piece of what changed in COVID is that workers' interest 00:15:42.077 --> 00:15:49.777 in health and safety has grown even more than employers because it impacted all workers.

00:15:49.777 --> 00:15:57.637 And we see a huge interest from worker organizations and individual workers in health and safety. 00:15:57.937 --> 00:16:04.157 And the challenge is how someone, whether it's not necessarily us, 00:16:04.277 --> 00:16:07.957 but how those organizations corral that energy. 00:16:07.957 --> 00:16:15.237 Because the worker who enters this is, you know, it's a little different than, 00:16:15.377 --> 00:16:22.117 say, wage and hour issues or something or economic issues where you can go out and hire a lawyer. 00:16:22.297 --> 00:16:30.017 And as a result, there's kind of external expertise that people who are advocates for workers.

00:16:30.437 --> 00:16:34.777 And in the area of health and safety, OSHA is really the main game in town. 00:16:34.777 --> 00:16:39.337 So, yeah, you unions have expertise, but, you know, that if you're not in that, 00:16:39.457 --> 00:16:43.097 if you're not in a union, then then there's really there's a handful of places 00:16:43.097 --> 00:16:44.497 to go if there's a worker center. 00:16:44.637 --> 00:16:49.577 But but even in those spaces that there's limited expertise in health and safety. 00:16:49.737 --> 00:16:54.597 And so how do you you know, how do these workers express their interest?

00:16:54.917 --> 00:16:57.177 And I mean, they understand I mean, you know, they're in the workplace. 00:16:57.177 --> 00:17:01.477 They have a lot of knowledge of what the issues are within their workplace, 00:17:01.477 --> 00:17:07.797 but they have less understanding of how you obtain a remedy or how you get a solution. 00:17:08.397 --> 00:17:12.077 And so there's a tremendous opportunity. 00:17:12.217 --> 00:17:16.357 And I don't think employers should shy away from it.

I think they need to seize 00:17:16.357 --> 00:17:19.237 on the opportunity to engage with workers and. 00:17:20.422 --> 00:17:23.342 And use workers as a resource to improve health and safety. 00:17:23.522 --> 00:17:27.502 We've gotten a lot of criticism for, you know, from some sectors of the employer 00:17:27.502 --> 00:17:34.082 community for our work, you know, expanding who can be a party representative in an inspection. 00:17:34.482 --> 00:17:40.042 And I think that a lot of the criticism has been theoretical instead of what 00:17:40.042 --> 00:17:41.282 actually happens in practice.

00:17:41.882 --> 00:17:47.322 I think we are, you know, in the last quarter, we've had about 1%, 00:17:47.322 --> 00:17:51.962 1% participation of a third-party representative in our inspection. 00:17:52.142 --> 00:17:59.442 So that's, you know, 72 inspections out of 7,400 inspections that have happened. 00:18:00.002 --> 00:18:04.262 But before that, it was around, you know, 15 inspections a quarter. 00:18:04.422 --> 00:18:08.442 So, you know, I didn't do the math, but it's well under 1%, you know, 00:18:08.502 --> 00:18:13.602 0.15 or whatever it would be.

So you had very little worker participation. 00:18:14.362 --> 00:18:22.542 And so it's a modest amount, but it's still a marker of significant increase 00:18:22.542 --> 00:18:24.722 of interest on the one hand, 00:18:24.782 --> 00:18:29.562 but also an expression of the reality that there's still very limited capacity 00:18:29.562 --> 00:18:35.662 out there for people to have the skill sets to be active participants. 00:18:35.662 --> 00:18:39.962 So that's something that if it can grow, if there are more health and safety 00:18:39.962 --> 00:18:42.402 committees, it's a great opportunity. 00:18:42.702 --> 00:18:47.142 And I think it's also it's probably an indication that there's a lot of places 00:18:47.142 --> 00:18:51.142 out there where workers are engaging with their employer and fixing things and 00:18:51.142 --> 00:18:53.462 we're not involved, which is really the ideal.

Right. Right. 00:18:54.369 --> 00:18:59.389 And I think, Doug, it goes on to sort of imply a larger change, 00:18:59.609 --> 00:19:04.389 which is that the management sees the worker in a different role. 00:19:04.689 --> 00:19:09.929 And part of that dialogue that's changing at the management level is changing 00:19:09.929 --> 00:19:14.589 because you guys sort of created an opportunity to change that dialogue for leaders.

00:19:14.829 --> 00:19:20.889 Leaders can now see workers really as people who have kind of a lot of expertise. 00:19:20.889 --> 00:19:24.249 Companies and i and i think that's really been an important shift 00:19:24.249 --> 00:19:26.929 that's happened pretty recently i mean i think you 00:19:26.929 --> 00:19:29.669 guys can to a great extent take some credit for 00:19:29.669 --> 00:19:32.789 that and and should for sure what are 00:19:32.789 --> 00:19:35.649 you thinking jim it looks like something really profound is about to 00:19:35.649 --> 00:19:40.029 shoot on this on this topic todd the the one thing that always comes to my mind 00:19:40.029 --> 00:19:44.889 is the very first time i took a health and safety um course in college in you 00:19:44.889 --> 00:19:51.649 know 1980 something was that on a stone tablet pretty much And we had the cars 00:19:51.649 --> 00:19:55.409 that we had to use our feet underneath them to get to campus on. 00:19:56.769 --> 00:20:03.069 But the way that the OSHA Act was taught to me in that Safety 101 course was 00:20:03.069 --> 00:20:08.229 exactly what Doug just described, that the OSHA Act provides for workers to 00:20:08.229 --> 00:20:10.449 be involved and be part of this process, 00:20:10.609 --> 00:20:12.569 including the walk-around inspection, 00:20:12.569 --> 00:20:16.509 and workers get to pick a person to represent them in that process. 00:20:16.509 --> 00:20:19.329 That's the way I learned it in 1980 something.

00:20:19.689 --> 00:20:24.309 And, you know, over time it had really, really changed to put in different connotation. 00:20:24.469 --> 00:20:28.849 And this rulemaking, I really think is truly just to get us back to what the 00:20:28.849 --> 00:20:32.929 intent of the OSHA Act is to hear that voice of workers. 00:20:33.349 --> 00:20:36.749 And we'll see where it goes from here. 00:20:38.264 --> 00:20:44.404 Message do you guys have for your stakeholders that have been with you the last 00:20:44.404 --> 00:20:46.864 four years?

What do you want to leave us with? 00:20:47.484 --> 00:20:49.644 I just want to thank people for, 00:20:51.664 --> 00:20:57.984 either trusting us or at a minimum being open to having a dialogue with us and 00:20:57.984 --> 00:20:59.324 giving us the opportunity to 00:20:59.324 --> 00:21:05.744 prove that we were willing to listen and take people's issues into account. 00:21:06.444 --> 00:21:08.664 And try to resolve them when we could. 00:21:09.364 --> 00:21:15.724 And that we always wanted to have that dialogue.

00:21:16.024 --> 00:21:20.944 And I think, you know, I was, he's just one example, but he comes to mind. 00:21:21.084 --> 00:21:25.564 I got a nice note from Matt Comfort with Quanah, who's, you know, 00:21:25.664 --> 00:21:28.044 with the ET&D partnership. 00:21:28.444 --> 00:21:30.964 And, you know, we don't see eye to eye on everything, right, 00:21:31.084 --> 00:21:38.124 by any means, but we could always work together on the areas where we had a common interest. 00:21:38.444 --> 00:21:45.304 And I wish that more people who are cynical about government could see how folks 00:21:45.304 --> 00:21:50.744 who maybe don't agree on some things can get together and find solutions on 00:21:50.744 --> 00:21:54.284 the things that they care about, even if they don't take the same approach.

00:21:54.504 --> 00:22:01.324 And I just want to thank guys like him and many others who have been real partners 00:22:01.324 --> 00:22:02.664 in those kind of dialogues. 00:22:03.284 --> 00:22:08.064 Yeah. And I heard from a, from similarly, I heard from an industry representative, 00:22:08.324 --> 00:22:13.304 a health and safety professional out of the power generating industry, 00:22:13.544 --> 00:22:16.944 just, just the other evening, he and I were chatting for a minute and, 00:22:17.224 --> 00:22:21.364 and, you know, he commented about just the openness that, that over these last 00:22:21.364 --> 00:22:28.004 four years, the unexpected openness that, that they felt in their industry of 00:22:28.004 --> 00:22:30.644 being able to have a dialogue with us. 00:22:30.804 --> 00:22:35.164 And that's where we started this four years ago and continued that message on 00:22:35.164 --> 00:22:40.284 through is if somebody wanted to talk, we were certainly here available and willing to talk.

00:22:40.484 --> 00:22:47.264 And so I hope that that sort of a process continues forever at this agency. 00:22:47.444 --> 00:22:51.344 And the second thing is, there are some who say, well, we didn't get done some 00:22:51.344 --> 00:22:52.504 of the things on our list. 00:22:52.564 --> 00:22:56.264 And to that, I just always think back that if we would have gotten done everything 00:22:56.264 --> 00:23:00.224 that was on the list at the beginning of this four years, the list wasn't long 00:23:00.224 --> 00:23:03.204 enough because there's a lot of work to be done in health and safety. 00:23:03.284 --> 00:23:06.804 We got the part of it and there's still some very important work to do.

00:23:07.324 --> 00:23:12.464 Bravo. That's the perfect answer. So the next question is really important and 00:23:12.464 --> 00:23:16.324 you guys are both going to be awkward and humble, but the big question that 00:23:16.324 --> 00:23:19.824 everyone's asked me to ask you both is what's next for you? 00:23:20.971 --> 00:23:24.611 Here's the awkward and humble part.

Well, I think Jim's going on a walk. 00:23:24.911 --> 00:23:26.791 I know he's going on the Camino. 00:23:27.471 --> 00:23:30.851 Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I leave in a handful of days.

00:23:30.991 --> 00:23:33.651 My backpack is packed. I was showing it on a call yesterday, 00:23:33.771 --> 00:23:37.371 showing it to Doug and other people that were on the call. My backpack's packed. I can lift it up.

00:23:37.571 --> 00:23:42.611 So I'm ready to take a little bit of a break and have that break of space and 00:23:42.611 --> 00:23:46.511 time to get my head focused on what I want to do next. 00:23:46.871 --> 00:23:51.191 And when I think about what I want to do next, It's really about serious injury 00:23:51.191 --> 00:23:52.251 and fatality prevention, 00:23:52.811 --> 00:23:56.971 safety and health management systems, and integrating those two things with 00:23:56.971 --> 00:24:03.171 a new view approach as workplaces, employers, and workers move forward to a 00:24:03.171 --> 00:24:04.531 better space on health and safety. 00:24:05.171 --> 00:24:09.411 Excellent. Good luck on the walk.

Oh, for sure. And here's an important word 00:24:09.411 --> 00:24:12.151 you need to learn, calcetina. Do you know that word? 00:24:12.591 --> 00:24:15.871 You need it.

I do not. That's the word for socks, calcetinas. 00:24:17.251 --> 00:24:21.151 I have seven pairs of socks in my bag. That's good.

You need seven. 00:24:21.351 --> 00:24:23.251 So that's important. Doug, what about you? 00:24:23.811 --> 00:24:29.651 I don't have a plan right now.

I will, you know, I'm working, 00:24:29.671 --> 00:24:33.451 you know, till noon on the 20th. 00:24:33.811 --> 00:24:37.971 And then I'll start thinking more about what the future holds. 00:24:38.911 --> 00:24:44.411 You know, so, you know, I'm open for opportunities. you 00:24:44.411 --> 00:24:47.231 know if i had a catchy phone number i could be 00:24:47.231 --> 00:24:50.431 like junior sample that you know and uh 00:24:50.431 --> 00:24:54.191 br549 but i don't but i 00:24:54.191 --> 00:24:58.371 will i will be you know i'm sitting down with my family and figuring out what's 00:24:58.371 --> 00:25:04.091 next we are going to stay in the in the dc area for for for now and i'll i'll 00:25:04.091 --> 00:25:12.491 be i'll be looking for for work work around here and maybe spend a little time off and and you know, 00:25:12.971 --> 00:25:15.851 get in a few fishing trips and then, then start something new.

00:25:16.011 --> 00:25:18.051 Take a nice walk. It seems like a great idea. 00:25:18.311 --> 00:25:20.251 What did I miss? What should I've asked you?

00:25:20.651 --> 00:25:24.871 What, what message do we want to make sure gets out there that, 00:25:24.951 --> 00:25:27.491 that I just didn't ask anything? 00:25:28.411 --> 00:25:32.271 I think, I think we've covered quite a bit that, you know, the one thing I, 00:25:32.331 --> 00:25:38.251 I, I have my post-it list of my takeaways of four years of work. 00:25:38.851 --> 00:25:43.331 And, you know, the last thing on the bottom of this is that the work here at OSHA, 00:25:43.511 --> 00:25:47.271 it all matters, and that OSHA