PAPod 534 - Embracing Māori Culture in Modern Safety Practices - Meet Vance Walker

WEBVTT 00:00:00.017 --> 00:00:04.437 I'm in the business of putting in play a new genre of health and safety practice 00:00:04.437 --> 00:00:11.557 that's based on Māori culture that can link with or connect with modern health 00:00:11.557 --> 00:00:12.677 and safety practices here. 00:00:12.837 --> 00:00:17.717 I think the unique practice will be better fit for purpose for Māori workers 00:00:17.717 --> 00:00:21.037 and other vulnerable workers because it just resonates. 00:00:21.277 --> 00:00:33.997 So caution's resonated with you today. We'll be right back.

00:00:23.760 --> 00:00:35.760 Music. 00:00:34.577 --> 00:00:37.297 Hey, everybody, and welcome to the Pre-Accident Investigation Podcast. 00:00:37.677 --> 00:00:41.897 I am your host, young Todrick von Conklin. 00:00:42.477 --> 00:00:46.937 That's my formal name.

You can just call me Todd. Please, just call me Todd. 00:00:47.157 --> 00:00:48.437 So I hope you're doing well. 00:00:49.517 --> 00:00:54.897 It is just flatly an interesting time to be alive.

I don't know how else to 00:00:54.897 --> 00:00:59.617 say that other than to say that. I mean, I'm not sure I'm saying a good thing 00:00:59.617 --> 00:01:02.417 or a bad thing. I just don't know. 00:01:02.897 --> 00:01:08.957 And that kind of uncertainty, which clearly we are in a period of great uncertainty.

00:01:09.197 --> 00:01:11.797 I mean, and it's been about the past five years. 00:01:12.137 --> 00:01:15.197 We're getting to be kind of experts in managing uncertainty, 00:01:15.497 --> 00:01:22.137 managing the unexpected, doing amazing work with the uncertain future potential. 00:01:22.497 --> 00:01:23.997 That's kind of what we do. 00:01:24.717 --> 00:01:31.577 And I'm not sure, I don't know how you feel, but I'm not sure this is what I bought into.

00:01:32.377 --> 00:01:35.697 But it's definitely what I have. So that's a part of it as well. 00:01:35.917 --> 00:01:40.377 I'm super, super stoked about today's podcast. 00:01:40.677 --> 00:01:44.017 Because we're going to get to meet a man, I'll talk about him more, 00:01:44.217 --> 00:01:45.797 but his name's Vance Walker.

00:01:46.277 --> 00:01:50.557 And he works with the indigenous people. He is an indigenous person, 00:01:50.737 --> 00:01:54.017 but he works with the indigenous people in New Zealand, the Maoris. 00:01:54.017 --> 00:01:57.937 And he is dutifully and 00:01:57.937 --> 00:02:02.817 amazingly involved in just 00:02:02.817 --> 00:02:13.457 doing a very interesting study on how the Maori culture can best help us collectively 00:02:13.457 --> 00:02:20.537 in everything we do become better at understanding safety from a different cultural viewpoint. 00:02:20.537 --> 00:02:25.157 And I think you'll find it to be incredibly interesting.

What a smart dude. 00:02:25.577 --> 00:02:33.137 As for me, life is grand without exception because recently the weather's been really nice, 00:02:33.317 --> 00:02:38.717 which is kind of a little sort of a secret treat that happens in February because 00:02:38.717 --> 00:02:42.297 it's mid-60s Fahrenheit. 00:02:42.417 --> 00:02:48.477 And that's a really nice place to be, full well knowing that it's going to get 00:02:48.477 --> 00:02:49.997 really cold and snow more. 00:02:50.668 --> 00:02:54.128 It's trickery is what it is.

It's complete trickery. But it kind of, 00:02:54.248 --> 00:02:58.848 it's enough good weather to sort of rekindle your faith in humankind. 00:02:59.508 --> 00:03:02.648 Because you think, well, something exciting is going to happen. 00:03:02.748 --> 00:03:04.528 I mean, this could be, this is it.

00:03:04.928 --> 00:03:09.928 It's spring. It's not. But you kind of think about that being spring. 00:03:10.148 --> 00:03:15.448 And for me, you know, pulling the old bicycle out and getting an opportunity 00:03:15.448 --> 00:03:17.588 to ride around is really valuable.

00:03:17.588 --> 00:03:23.568 And I've decided, I don't know if I've told you this yet, but I've decided that 00:03:23.568 --> 00:03:28.508 riding a bike, like the way I do, and I should be really honest, 00:03:28.648 --> 00:03:30.668 I usually ride to do stuff. 00:03:31.188 --> 00:03:34.148 And the reason I ride a bicycle is because you don't have to worry about parking, 00:03:34.168 --> 00:03:37.068 which is in and of itself amazing. 00:03:37.608 --> 00:03:43.668 But also, it's kind of meditative. And I hate using that word because it sounds a bit mushy.

00:03:44.508 --> 00:03:50.188 But you really, you think about stuff. And so that's kind of what I think I've 00:03:50.188 --> 00:03:51.428 learned that I appreciate. 00:03:51.668 --> 00:03:58.608 Plus, you get to be outside and say hi to people and see people and their dogs. A lot of dog action.

00:03:59.188 --> 00:04:05.428 Lots of dog action. But nonetheless, it's a great way to sort of rekindle and 00:04:05.428 --> 00:04:07.988 get back in touch with the world as we know it. 00:04:08.088 --> 00:04:10.588 So that part's good. So I got that going on for me.

00:04:10.908 --> 00:04:15.928 Lots of exciting stuff happening. It looks like the next big conference, 00:04:16.328 --> 00:04:22.688 all the gears are in place to have a big conference. So we're getting that all 00:04:22.688 --> 00:04:24.928 lined up and that'll be exciting. 00:04:25.108 --> 00:04:27.968 So maybe some of you guys I'll get to hang out with because we're going to do 00:04:27.968 --> 00:04:32.908 it again in Santa Fe just because it's just a good place to do it.

00:04:33.048 --> 00:04:35.988 It's an excellent place to do it. And so that's good. 00:04:35.988 --> 00:04:40.228 Without much further ado, let's get into this conversation with Vance, 00:04:40.428 --> 00:04:48.028 because Vance is really, he's pretty special in that his background, 00:04:48.028 --> 00:04:54.088 he worked for New Zealand Health and Safety as a safety professional. 00:04:54.088 --> 00:05:00.528 But what he really is, is a recognized expert in pragmatically connecting the 00:05:00.528 --> 00:05:06.108 Maori culture with environment, health and safety systems and practices.

00:05:06.998 --> 00:05:13.798 And what it's done is it's really leading to improved worker risk perception, 00:05:14.158 --> 00:05:16.578 improved risk communication, 00:05:16.998 --> 00:05:22.698 improved use of controls, and a value for caution. 00:05:22.698 --> 00:05:26.798 That's going to be a word that comes up a lot in this conversation. 00:05:27.018 --> 00:05:31.358 And I think it's kind of an important conversation to have. Now, 00:05:31.538 --> 00:05:37.878 I want to bring Vance in and have him share with you exactly what he's doing.

00:05:38.078 --> 00:05:40.558 And here's my bargain for you. 00:05:40.998 --> 00:05:44.758 At the end, you're going to want to know more. I just can't imagine a scenario 00:05:44.758 --> 00:05:47.018 where you don't want to know more. You're going to want to know more.

00:05:47.358 --> 00:05:50.098 And so we'll give an opportunity for that to happen as well. 00:05:50.178 --> 00:05:57.378 But listen carefully, because I think what you're about to hear has direct value for all of us. 00:05:57.378 --> 00:06:01.478 So without any further ado, here's a little conversation just between the three 00:06:01.478 --> 00:06:07.898 of us, you, myself, and Vance, on safety and the Maori culture. 00:06:10.938 --> 00:06:15.218 So being cautious instead of safety.

So I came to the conclusion safety is an ideal. 00:06:16.098 --> 00:06:20.018 That is hard to achieve. I mean, some of your work alludes to that as well. 00:06:20.998 --> 00:06:28.438 So now I've got an idea that I have to reprise these practices or traditions 00:06:28.438 --> 00:06:31.858 or values and try to get them aligned with health and safety.

00:06:32.058 --> 00:06:38.018 So kia tu pato, which again is an attitude for being cautious rather than safe, 00:06:38.198 --> 00:06:39.918 which is an ideal output. 00:06:40.398 --> 00:06:47.958 Kia tu pato has been used in a few businesses and construction projects mainly. And it says this. 00:06:48.638 --> 00:06:54.418 As a Māori worker, I have a history of my people behaving cautiously.

00:06:54.938 --> 00:07:00.358 So for instance, a recent example would be COVID. 00:07:00.678 --> 00:07:04.978 So the COVID lockdown, which New Zealand got out early in terms of social distancing. 00:07:06.038 --> 00:07:12.898 The norm would be to adopt whatever the government says in terms of social distancing. 00:07:13.138 --> 00:07:17.998 But what we came up with was a history of caution.

So during 1918, 00:07:18.358 --> 00:07:24.678 the great influenza epidemic, which struck the world, Māori changed their customs of meetings. 00:07:24.918 --> 00:07:28.078 So we have this thing called o-hungi, which is a pressing of noses, 00:07:28.238 --> 00:07:34.538 which basically signifies the bringing of life, so the breath of life from our gods. 00:07:35.138 --> 00:07:39.418 But that wasn't going to work in a COVID system. But what we did find was during 00:07:39.418 --> 00:07:41.458 the influenza that Māori changed.

00:07:42.179 --> 00:07:47.119 Their behaviours or their protocols to do the bump. So that's a shoulder bump. 00:07:47.519 --> 00:07:55.219 So the social distancing has been improved. The hongi has been replaced by the shoulder bump.

00:07:55.379 --> 00:07:59.479 And so there was a history behind that. So we went to the government and said, 00:07:59.479 --> 00:08:05.739 actually, these procedures would have better value if we translated that or 00:08:05.739 --> 00:08:07.459 couched that with the history of Māori. 00:08:07.679 --> 00:08:10.679 So hence, we had a knowledge already 00:08:10.679 --> 00:08:13.899 of social distancing we contemporised it 00:08:13.899 --> 00:08:17.979 to modern practice and that's why during COVID the 00:08:17.979 --> 00:08:24.179 bump became the mainstay instead of the hongi and as a result I think conversations 00:08:24.179 --> 00:08:28.979 about social distancing in terms of not touching one another became a lot easier 00:08:28.979 --> 00:08:34.899 because Māori understood we do have an history and we do have an insight and a knowledge around it. 00:08:35.279 --> 00:08:44.279 So back to your question there is therefore a body of knowledge and history that speaks to caution.

00:08:44.479 --> 00:08:48.019 Other examples include, you know, political caution. So Māori are politically 00:08:48.019 --> 00:08:49.659 cautious about different things. 00:08:49.819 --> 00:08:55.919 When we give speeches, we like to, like a lot of people, we like to figure out 00:08:55.919 --> 00:09:00.359 who we're talking with and by default we can work out the politics. 00:09:01.059 --> 00:09:05.659 So when you went on to your Māori meeting, it would have been a quick conversation 00:09:05.659 --> 00:09:09.779 of one who's on that side of the marae.

So, you know, when you went on, 00:09:09.879 --> 00:09:13.119 there was the visitor's side and there were the home side. 00:09:13.359 --> 00:09:16.479 So looking at different people, because Māori society is quite compact, 00:09:16.679 --> 00:09:19.499 you can look at a different person and say, if I say that, you'll probably be 00:09:19.499 --> 00:09:20.759 offended. So I'll say this. 00:09:21.139 --> 00:09:26.379 And so caution is an attitude that resonates with Māori and is practiced on a daily basis.

00:09:26.779 --> 00:09:31.699 It's not uncommon that you hear parents of Māori tuning saying, 00:09:32.059 --> 00:09:38.899 kia tūpato. So kiu tupatu is a command to say, be careful, but if you're not, 00:09:39.119 --> 00:09:40.219 you're going to get hurt. 00:09:40.399 --> 00:09:44.959 And because those two words resonate over time, from a young beginning to when 00:09:44.959 --> 00:09:48.259 you're a mature adult, the message is still the same, caution. 00:09:48.699 --> 00:09:52.259 So there's a few other examples, but caution is the one that, 00:09:52.439 --> 00:09:56.339 sorry, kiu tupatu and caution is the one that resonates the most in the modern 00:09:56.339 --> 00:10:02.259 health and safety setting.

And that seems to be that notion of being cautious. 00:10:02.679 --> 00:10:07.559 I really like that, actually, because I talk a lot about the sort of the notion 00:10:07.559 --> 00:10:13.779 of risk competency, which is in essence kind of the notion of being cautious. 00:10:14.019 --> 00:10:18.219 Does that translate well then outside to the business community? 00:10:18.559 --> 00:10:20.259 I mean, do they understand it?

00:10:21.219 --> 00:10:24.819 No, it doesn't for a number of reasons which aren't disingenuous. 00:10:25.019 --> 00:10:28.379 So you touched on a good point. So Mia Matara, which is a research project, 00:10:29.019 --> 00:10:35.939 its aim is to provide a business case for decisions from businesses to invest 00:10:35.939 --> 00:10:39.299 or not in Māori health and so forth. So when we talk about...

00:10:40.748 --> 00:10:47.388 Do businesses get it? They don't because if I was to place a worker in the middle 00:10:47.388 --> 00:10:52.668 of what we do, like you do, you can often break it down to supply and demand. 00:10:52.888 --> 00:10:57.168 So from the supply side, we've got the discipline. So the researchers.

00:10:57.788 --> 00:11:02.128 The opinions, the views, the practices coming in towards the worker. 00:11:02.568 --> 00:11:05.688 From the demand side, we have businesses with their assistants. 00:11:06.208 --> 00:11:09.588 What happens in the New Zealand context is they're colourblind. 00:11:09.588 --> 00:11:14.448 So the supply side, the researchers, the practitioners, the inspectors, 00:11:14.848 --> 00:11:17.928 the health and safety professionals have a colour blind.

00:11:18.108 --> 00:11:20.788 So they'll go straight to the demand side, which is the businesses, 00:11:21.088 --> 00:11:22.548 and they'll say X, Y and Z. 00:11:22.768 --> 00:11:25.228 The workers, the Maori workers are left out of the picture. 00:11:25.488 --> 00:11:31.488 And what usually happens after that is it's easier for both parties, the supply and demand, 00:11:31.728 --> 00:11:34.948 to raise the negative narrative, which 00:11:34.948 --> 00:11:38.268 is Māori workers are getting killed or 00:11:38.268 --> 00:11:41.508 harmed disproportionately high and we have the solution but 00:11:41.508 --> 00:11:44.908 the solution as the data shows just isn't working so the 00:11:44.908 --> 00:11:51.288 idea is to provide a lens for both the supply side and the demand side to see 00:11:51.288 --> 00:11:55.168 a bit more clearly the value of Māori culture and workplace health and safety 00:11:55.168 --> 00:11:58.888 I'm starting to give up on the supply side because it's really superficial because 00:11:58.888 --> 00:12:03.968 the supply side or the health and safety professionals they pick up little pieces but 00:12:04.288 --> 00:12:07.868 actually are they getting to the sense of protecting network they're probably 00:12:07.868 --> 00:12:12.968 not the demand side is is where we want to focus at the moment so placing. 00:12:13.768 --> 00:12:18.908 Businesses in a position where they've got that information using business language, 00:12:19.208 --> 00:12:23.968 so return on investment, cost of intervention, cost-benefit analysis.

00:12:24.388 --> 00:12:28.508 And me and Matata will provide that information and then they can make decisions 00:12:28.508 --> 00:12:32.328 because they should always be allowed to make decisions on whether to invest or not. 00:12:32.488 --> 00:12:37.588 So that's where I'm facing my work, more on the demand side. 00:12:37.588 --> 00:12:42.888 But obviously, the beneficiary one, at the end of the day, isn't the demand 00:12:42.888 --> 00:12:49.848 or the supply side, but a product or a genre of practice that's fit for purpose. 00:12:50.248 --> 00:12:53.188 That actually does reduce harms and fatalities.

00:12:53.488 --> 00:13:00.348 And because your background is so unique in that you spent some time really 00:13:00.348 --> 00:13:04.948 as an inspector, right? I mean, is that the right term, inspector? 00:13:05.168 --> 00:13:11.048 Yeah. As a safety professional on really, well, 00:13:11.348 --> 00:13:17.528 for you, both sides of the supply and the demand, do you find yourself as a translator, 00:13:17.528 --> 00:13:26.248 as a go-between, as you sort of can help organizations and cultures see the 00:13:26.248 --> 00:13:29.768 entries and exits between those two areas?

00:13:30.148 --> 00:13:33.608 Yeah, I mean, I love your language too. So a broker of good health and safety 00:13:33.608 --> 00:13:36.648 as it pertains to Māori workers is a good way to put it. 00:13:36.788 --> 00:13:40.388 But, you know, if we look a bit more deeper, and you're reflective of this, 00:13:40.508 --> 00:13:44.208 you know, critical thinkers in health and safety, there might be a few and far between. 00:13:44.368 --> 00:13:48.188 Those that challenge the status quo.

So your work resonates with me because 00:13:48.188 --> 00:13:50.528 you're saying, actually, that's not quite right. 00:13:50.708 --> 00:13:54.368 I think this might be a better approach. Those critical thinkers need to be 00:13:54.368 --> 00:13:59.008 patted on the back and grown because there's few of us, actually, 00:13:59.168 --> 00:14:01.428 when we look at health and safety in the New Zealand setting, 00:14:01.568 --> 00:14:04.608 it's all about compliance, which is really easy to do. 00:14:04.808 --> 00:14:07.268 So audits, you know, I'll just do an audit and I'll tick a box.

00:14:07.388 --> 00:14:08.468 Yeah, everything's looking good. 00:14:09.008 --> 00:14:15.228 The thing with that is we start to buy in with the new age concept of work as 00:14:15.228 --> 00:14:16.648 imagined versus work as done. 00:14:16.888 --> 00:14:21.808 Right. So, yeah, so that's where it sort of starts to link in.

So critical thought. 00:14:22.228 --> 00:14:25.948 I guess my background having walked both sides of the fence, 00:14:26.368 --> 00:14:31.528 I mean, in terms of mainstream New Zealand culture and Māori culture provides 00:14:31.528 --> 00:14:36.828 me with enough of an insight where I can start to develop practices or, 00:14:36.828 --> 00:14:38.668 you know, have views that are quite balanced. 00:14:39.308 --> 00:14:43.828 But the challenge is to get that Māori culture into modern health and safety, 00:14:43.868 --> 00:14:46.328 which is quite challenging, but it's worth it. 00:14:46.448 --> 00:14:50.668 I mean, it keeps me in a job, so to speak.

Well, absolutely. And there you go. 00:14:51.208 --> 00:14:57.128 And one of the things, at least I see this here, and I'm super interested if 00:14:57.128 --> 00:14:59.528 you see it there, is that the. 00:15:00.571 --> 00:15:04.511 The indigenous cultures, at least in the New Mexico area, the ones I'm familiar 00:15:04.511 --> 00:15:12.291 with, the concept of zero events is really foreign and not – I mean, 00:15:12.731 --> 00:15:15.731 it's – if I may, and tell me if I'm wrong, 00:15:16.331 --> 00:15:22.411 the culture of cautiousness is a culture that's built not around the idea that 00:15:22.411 --> 00:15:26.591 nothing will happen, but in fact around the idea that something will happen.

00:15:27.191 --> 00:15:30.511 Yes, and that's probably the, yeah, that's the centre of it. 00:15:30.671 --> 00:15:33.491 I mean, caution, if you look in the dictionary, that's about, 00:15:33.491 --> 00:15:38.031 you know, foreseeing something that can happen and trying to prevent it happening. 00:15:38.331 --> 00:15:41.771 And trying to prevent, trying being a key word as well. Right.

00:15:41.931 --> 00:15:43.471 And I think your view is that. 00:15:43.691 --> 00:15:48.411 So it doesn't matter whether you're wrong or right. It does matter that you have a view. 00:15:48.651 --> 00:15:52.671 So again, we come back to critical thinking.

So when we look at the international 00:15:52.671 --> 00:15:55.011 literature around Indigenous health and safety, debts. 00:15:55.451 --> 00:16:00.651 It's very negligible. And the narrative is largely negative. 00:16:00.991 --> 00:16:07.111 So looking at the international labour organisation, they're concerned with 00:16:07.111 --> 00:16:08.331 employment conditions.

00:16:08.731 --> 00:16:13.051 So the narrative when I read their stuff is, everything's bad for Indigenous 00:16:13.051 --> 00:16:15.951 workers, so we have to do something about it. 00:16:16.071 --> 00:16:19.351 But the doing something about it hasn't been done, so to speak. 00:16:19.451 --> 00:16:23.211 So we're stuck in this groundhog day of a negative narrative, 00:16:23.431 --> 00:16:28.731 which is actually, for your friends in New Mexico, actually starts to displace them a bit. 00:16:28.811 --> 00:16:32.111 Because if you're told you're useless, or you can't do anything about it, 00:16:32.331 --> 00:16:34.971 or people are going to do things about it, but they're not doing about it, 00:16:35.151 --> 00:16:40.771 over the decades, in the centuries, you actually start to develop an acquaintance bias.

00:16:40.971 --> 00:16:46.611 So you start to learn how to tell people what they want to hear in order to get them off their back. 00:16:47.211 --> 00:16:51.451 Whereas another narrative is, I recognize your values. I need to get those into 00:16:51.451 --> 00:16:55.051 play, so to speak, so that the conversations change. 00:16:55.731 --> 00:17:01.651 And I guess my role as a broker is to validate the voice of workers and their 00:17:01.651 --> 00:17:06.511 culture so it can be better understood, in this case, by businesses.

00:17:06.931 --> 00:17:11.891 What are things we could be doing now that would start to make a difference 00:17:11.891 --> 00:17:16.171 and increase the potential positive outcome of this type of dialogue? 00:17:16.951 --> 00:17:19.891 Yeah, so that's a real good question. So it's hard. 00:17:20.031 --> 00:17:24.931 It's hard for white people to understand brown people in terms of the cultural setting.

00:17:24.971 --> 00:17:29.591 And it's hard for brown people to talk to white people about cultural stuff 00:17:29.591 --> 00:17:32.291 because, again, it's really got them nowhere. 00:17:32.511 --> 00:17:36.331 So if you were to do things now, it would be to be, you know, 00:17:36.431 --> 00:17:38.671 just curious about other cultures. 00:17:38.911 --> 00:17:44.671 And then if you're a health and safety person, not to fudge around what usually happens sometimes, 00:17:45.430 --> 00:17:49.050 about the superficial stuff. But to ask direct questions, you know, 00:17:49.290 --> 00:17:51.450 do you have a value for caution?

00:17:51.630 --> 00:17:55.430 How do you keep your people safe? How did you keep your people safe? 00:17:55.750 --> 00:18:01.350 The overall thing you could do is to reprise the traditional stories. 00:18:01.530 --> 00:18:03.610 Health and safety is about good storytelling.

00:18:05.010 --> 00:18:11.850 Provide, reprise, find, have a nosey about those traditional stories and then 00:18:11.850 --> 00:18:18.350 try to think about those traditional stories and fast-forwarding them to health and safety today. 00:18:18.770 --> 00:18:26.310 And I think also when you place those practices or you start to develop those practices, 00:18:26.750 --> 00:18:31.910 keep the Indigenous people in the forefront in terms of talking with them because 00:18:31.910 --> 00:18:36.250 if we're an evidence-based practice like we like to say we are, 00:18:36.730 --> 00:18:39.610 the Indigenous views are largely left out. 00:18:39.610 --> 00:18:45.490 And if you can show in the evidence that here is the practice, 00:18:45.870 --> 00:18:50.470 here is the history, and here are the people today that are saying it's going 00:18:50.470 --> 00:18:54.170 to work, then in terms of the ammunition you need to be an influencer, 00:18:54.510 --> 00:18:56.810 you've got all three things in place. 00:18:57.070 --> 00:19:02.810 Evidence, influencers, you know, indigenous people, and a way forward, 00:19:02.970 --> 00:19:07.790 which is the new practice.

So simple stuff, be curious, find those stories, 00:19:08.350 --> 00:19:11.150 try to think about how those stories can be modernized in health and safety. 00:19:11.750 --> 00:19:16.170 Is the assumption that the best resources for understanding Indigenous workers 00:19:16.170 --> 00:19:18.970 are Indigenous workers a fair and correct assumption? 00:19:19.630 --> 00:19:22.030 Yeah, no, that's a very fair, and I think it's quite apt as well, 00:19:22.090 --> 00:19:25.830 because Indigenous cultures, in terms of their history, are histories. 00:19:26.690 --> 00:19:29.050 Written history is quite slim.

00:19:30.030 --> 00:19:35.770 And so, yeah, you're spot on. Talking, conversations, finding those stories, which anyone can do. 00:19:36.010 --> 00:19:39.450 And a good health and safety practitioner, as you know, is a great storyteller. 00:19:40.770 --> 00:19:44.490 Yeah, already at some level probably really understands that.

Yeah. 00:19:44.710 --> 00:19:51.330 But I wonder if they see that as a tool, as a way in to actually improve that 00:19:51.330 --> 00:19:54.850 relationship with indigenous workers really globally. 00:19:54.850 --> 00:20:02.550 But what great stories do you have of that very activity from the Maori culture 00:20:02.550 --> 00:20:05.670 and the work you're doing now? You must have some good ones.

00:20:06.297 --> 00:20:11.117 Yeah, so scaffolders are the bane of my life, scaffolding and scaffolders. 00:20:11.837 --> 00:20:13.677 I call them scaffoldists. 00:20:14.637 --> 00:20:16.897 They're more artists than science. 00:20:20.117 --> 00:20:25.477 And the bane in my practice life is probably the best potential for me to improve.

00:20:25.717 --> 00:20:28.197 So I work a bit with scaffolders now and again. 00:20:29.117 --> 00:20:33.797 So the scaffolding crew was putting something up, and I was saying, 00:20:33.917 --> 00:20:37.537 that doesn't look quite right. But I'm not a competent person in scaffolding. 00:20:37.597 --> 00:20:43.077 So my job there is to get the scaffolded to disclose to me, actually, 00:20:43.097 --> 00:20:46.097 that's not the right plans.

I think we'll do this. So we had that conversation. 00:20:46.277 --> 00:20:50.657 And then a senior Māori worker came over and said, you know, 00:20:51.037 --> 00:20:54.697 prior to going, prior to erecting that structure, we should have had a good 00:20:54.697 --> 00:21:00.037 conversation about how we're going to put it up. Because we'll put it up and it's a bloody mess.

00:21:00.137 --> 00:21:02.437 And I was saying, yeah, what else do you think? He said, well, 00:21:02.637 --> 00:21:06.037 when we have those conversations, we're actually following a checklist. 00:21:06.297 --> 00:21:13.217 So we're complying with something. So it's a 100% compliance installation they 00:21:13.217 --> 00:21:15.557 did.

But it was still wrong in practical means. 00:21:15.757 --> 00:21:17.997 So I said, well, what would you do? He said, well, you know, 00:21:18.237 --> 00:21:23.897 we've known about these problems in the past, but we retreat to the checklist or compliance. 00:21:24.037 --> 00:21:27.117 And everyone's happy, apart from you today, Vance.

and I was saying, 00:21:27.217 --> 00:21:31.957 well, tell me what you think culturally you should have done before you put 00:21:31.957 --> 00:21:34.097 that up. He said, we should have had a cautious view. 00:21:34.357 --> 00:21:38.497 We should have had kia tu patou in mind. We knew that that was wrong, 00:21:38.557 --> 00:21:39.837 but we never spoke about it.

00:21:40.117 --> 00:21:45.377 And we knew when we put it up that there's a chance we would call out. 00:21:46.457 --> 00:21:52.117 So I said, well, you need – so I said, what prevents you from having those discussions? 00:21:52.177 --> 00:21:56.657 And he said, because the system doesn't allow us to. the system is focused on 00:21:56.657 --> 00:22:00.317 compliance so the law allows you to have those conversations.

00:22:01.130 --> 00:22:04.530 And so I spoke to the owner of the company, I said to you, 00:22:05.050 --> 00:22:09.270 if you want to add value, if you want to put up a fit for purpose structure, 00:22:09.270 --> 00:22:14.870 if you want your scaffoldies to be more engaging, if you want your company to 00:22:14.870 --> 00:22:19.230 be more responsive, you have to let those conversations occur. So we did it the next day. 00:22:19.730 --> 00:22:24.870 And the conversation went like this. Listen, we know we shouldn't do that.

So why are we doing it? 00:22:25.330 --> 00:22:28.610 And obviously, because we want to pass the audit. And then the manager said, 00:22:28.770 --> 00:22:30.190 don't worry too much about the audit. 00:22:30.930 --> 00:22:36.330 Just do it because we're going to change the audit now to not only a tick box 00:22:36.330 --> 00:22:38.950 but more of an assessment type of approach.

00:22:39.190 --> 00:22:45.650 So they change their system to appreciate workers and their knowledge of what 00:22:45.650 --> 00:22:48.550 health and safety means. And I've got a few of those thoughts. 00:22:48.930 --> 00:22:52.810 I guess the main points are if you know something's wrong, have a chat about it. 00:22:53.030 --> 00:22:56.390 If you're worried about having a chat about it, have a chat about it even more 00:22:56.390 --> 00:22:59.250 and tell your manager or your boss why you're having that.

00:22:59.250 --> 00:23:04.090 Practical stuff in the New Zealand setting anyway most of the supervisors have 00:23:04.090 --> 00:23:07.890 come through the ranks or they've come off the tools so they'll understand those 00:23:07.890 --> 00:23:12.050 conversations but if you don't prompt them you're on a hiding tenner but culturally 00:23:12.050 --> 00:23:14.350 how do you create the space to have that conversation, 00:23:14.985 --> 00:23:19.645 Yeah, hard to do. Hence the practices, hence the evidence. So it takes a bit 00:23:19.645 --> 00:23:21.445 of courage, I suppose, from a Māori worker. 00:23:21.985 --> 00:23:25.385 And it takes a bit of acceptance from the business to those conversations, 00:23:25.565 --> 00:23:26.725 all that stuff's about to happen.

00:23:27.005 --> 00:23:30.145 And again, we'll come back to mea mautara, which is about the demanding. 00:23:30.465 --> 00:23:34.445 So providing the evidence that the return on investment is there makes sense to them. 00:23:35.205 --> 00:23:41.485 So it's more, I think it's a combination of hoping that a conversation will 00:23:41.485 --> 00:23:44.425 unfold, but more importantly, providing the incentives for that to occur. 00:23:44.625 --> 00:23:50.805 And hence, Mia Matara works at the demand end to provide a business case for 00:23:50.805 --> 00:23:56.245 businesses to make an investment decision, but also to allow those conversations to happen.

00:23:56.685 --> 00:23:59.705 And I guess underlying that is just having the stories around, 00:23:59.865 --> 00:24:03.505 such as you've asked, and documenting them, getting them out there, 00:24:03.965 --> 00:24:10.805 marketing them, communicating them to the middle line managers who will understand the practicality. 00:24:10.965 --> 00:24:14.785 I run across a lot of non-Mauri workers that think they're Maori workers because 00:24:14.785 --> 00:24:18.405 they've got a value for caution, because they share the same socioeconomic status. 00:24:18.725 --> 00:24:24.405 Yeah, which makes sense to me. And I really think all of a sudden the supply-demand 00:24:24.405 --> 00:24:28.545 model becomes really powerful when you think about the fact that you'll have 00:24:28.545 --> 00:24:34.705 those conversations if the organization sees a need to create a space to have that conversation.

00:24:35.225 --> 00:24:38.505 How significant are gender roles? 00:24:38.945 --> 00:24:44.545 I know culturally they're incredibly significant, but how significant do those play? 00:24:44.985 --> 00:24:48.405 I don't know. I haven't looked into it, but what I could say is that gender 00:24:48.405 --> 00:24:52.265 analysis is quite thin, but gender actions is becoming bigger in New Zealand.

00:24:52.405 --> 00:24:54.105 I think that's got to do with the workforce. 00:24:54.585 --> 00:24:59.665 More women able to do more men's jobs, more or less men doing those jobs. 00:25:00.065 --> 00:25:06.625 So in terms of Māori culture, not unsimilar to other Indigenous cultures. 00:25:07.8