PAPod 534 - Embracing Māori Culture in Modern Safety Practices - Meet Vance Walker

Show Transcript

WEBVTT

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I'm in the business of putting in play a new genre of health and safety practice

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that's based on Māori culture that can link with or connect with modern health

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and safety practices here.

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I think the unique practice will be better fit for purpose for Māori workers

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and other vulnerable workers because it just resonates.

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So caution's resonated with you today. We'll be right back.

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Music.

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Hey, everybody, and welcome to the Pre-Accident Investigation Podcast.

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I am your host, young Todrick von Conklin.

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That's my formal name. You can just call me Todd. Please, just call me Todd.

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So I hope you're doing well.

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It is just flatly an interesting time to be alive. I don't know how else to

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say that other than to say that. I mean, I'm not sure I'm saying a good thing

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or a bad thing. I just don't know.

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And that kind of uncertainty, which clearly we are in a period of great uncertainty.

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I mean, and it's been about the past five years.

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We're getting to be kind of experts in managing uncertainty,

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managing the unexpected, doing amazing work with the uncertain future potential.

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That's kind of what we do.

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And I'm not sure, I don't know how you feel, but I'm not sure this is what I bought into.

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But it's definitely what I have. So that's a part of it as well.

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I'm super, super stoked about today's podcast.

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Because we're going to get to meet a man, I'll talk about him more,

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but his name's Vance Walker.

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And he works with the indigenous people. He is an indigenous person,

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but he works with the indigenous people in New Zealand, the Maoris.

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And he is dutifully and

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amazingly involved in just

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doing a very interesting study on how the Maori culture can best help us collectively

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in everything we do become better at understanding safety from a different cultural viewpoint.

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And I think you'll find it to be incredibly interesting. What a smart dude.

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As for me, life is grand without exception because recently the weather's been really nice,

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which is kind of a little sort of a secret treat that happens in February because

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it's mid-60s Fahrenheit.

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And that's a really nice place to be, full well knowing that it's going to get

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really cold and snow more.

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It's trickery is what it is. It's complete trickery. But it kind of,

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it's enough good weather to sort of rekindle your faith in humankind.

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Because you think, well, something exciting is going to happen.

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I mean, this could be, this is it.

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It's spring. It's not. But you kind of think about that being spring.

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And for me, you know, pulling the old bicycle out and getting an opportunity

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to ride around is really valuable.

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And I've decided, I don't know if I've told you this yet, but I've decided that

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riding a bike, like the way I do, and I should be really honest,

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I usually ride to do stuff.

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And the reason I ride a bicycle is because you don't have to worry about parking,

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which is in and of itself amazing.

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But also, it's kind of meditative. And I hate using that word because it sounds a bit mushy.

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But you really, you think about stuff. And so that's kind of what I think I've

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learned that I appreciate.

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Plus, you get to be outside and say hi to people and see people and their dogs. A lot of dog action.

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Lots of dog action. But nonetheless, it's a great way to sort of rekindle and

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get back in touch with the world as we know it.

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So that part's good. So I got that going on for me.

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Lots of exciting stuff happening. It looks like the next big conference,

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all the gears are in place to have a big conference. So we're getting that all

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lined up and that'll be exciting.

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So maybe some of you guys I'll get to hang out with because we're going to do

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it again in Santa Fe just because it's just a good place to do it.

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It's an excellent place to do it. And so that's good.

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Without much further ado, let's get into this conversation with Vance,

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because Vance is really, he's pretty special in that his background,

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he worked for New Zealand Health and Safety as a safety professional.

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But what he really is, is a recognized expert in pragmatically connecting the

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Maori culture with environment, health and safety systems and practices.

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And what it's done is it's really leading to improved worker risk perception,

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improved risk communication,

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improved use of controls, and a value for caution.

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That's going to be a word that comes up a lot in this conversation.

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And I think it's kind of an important conversation to have. Now,

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I want to bring Vance in and have him share with you exactly what he's doing.

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And here's my bargain for you.

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At the end, you're going to want to know more. I just can't imagine a scenario

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where you don't want to know more. You're going to want to know more.

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And so we'll give an opportunity for that to happen as well.

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But listen carefully, because I think what you're about to hear has direct value for all of us.

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So without any further ado, here's a little conversation just between the three

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of us, you, myself, and Vance, on safety and the Maori culture.

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So being cautious instead of safety. So I came to the conclusion safety is an ideal.

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That is hard to achieve. I mean, some of your work alludes to that as well.

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So now I've got an idea that I have to reprise these practices or traditions

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or values and try to get them aligned with health and safety.

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So kia tu pato, which again is an attitude for being cautious rather than safe,

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which is an ideal output.

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Kia tu pato has been used in a few businesses and construction projects mainly. And it says this.

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As a Māori worker, I have a history of my people behaving cautiously.

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So for instance, a recent example would be COVID.

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So the COVID lockdown, which New Zealand got out early in terms of social distancing.

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The norm would be to adopt whatever the government says in terms of social distancing.

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But what we came up with was a history of caution. So during 1918,

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the great influenza epidemic, which struck the world, Māori changed their customs of meetings.

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So we have this thing called o-hungi, which is a pressing of noses,

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which basically signifies the bringing of life, so the breath of life from our gods.

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But that wasn't going to work in a COVID system. But what we did find was during

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the influenza that Māori changed.

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Their behaviours or their protocols to do the bump. So that's a shoulder bump.

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So the social distancing has been improved. The hongi has been replaced by the shoulder bump.

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And so there was a history behind that. So we went to the government and said,

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actually, these procedures would have better value if we translated that or

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couched that with the history of Māori.

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So hence, we had a knowledge already

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of social distancing we contemporised it

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to modern practice and that's why during COVID the

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bump became the mainstay instead of the hongi and as a result I think conversations

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about social distancing in terms of not touching one another became a lot easier

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because Māori understood we do have an history and we do have an insight and a knowledge around it.

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So back to your question there is therefore a body of knowledge and history that speaks to caution.

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Other examples include, you know, political caution. So Māori are politically

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cautious about different things.

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When we give speeches, we like to, like a lot of people, we like to figure out

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who we're talking with and by default we can work out the politics.

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So when you went on to your Māori meeting, it would have been a quick conversation

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of one who's on that side of the marae. So, you know, when you went on,

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there was the visitor's side and there were the home side.

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So looking at different people, because Māori society is quite compact,

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you can look at a different person and say, if I say that, you'll probably be

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offended. So I'll say this.

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And so caution is an attitude that resonates with Māori and is practiced on a daily basis.

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It's not uncommon that you hear parents of Māori tuning saying,

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kia tūpato. So kiu tupatu is a command to say, be careful, but if you're not,

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you're going to get hurt.

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And because those two words resonate over time, from a young beginning to when

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you're a mature adult, the message is still the same, caution.

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So there's a few other examples, but caution is the one that,

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sorry, kiu tupatu and caution is the one that resonates the most in the modern

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health and safety setting. And that seems to be that notion of being cautious.

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I really like that, actually, because I talk a lot about the sort of the notion

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of risk competency, which is in essence kind of the notion of being cautious.

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Does that translate well then outside to the business community?

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I mean, do they understand it?

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No, it doesn't for a number of reasons which aren't disingenuous.

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So you touched on a good point. So Mia Matara, which is a research project,

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its aim is to provide a business case for decisions from businesses to invest

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or not in Māori health and so forth. So when we talk about...

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Do businesses get it? They don't because if I was to place a worker in the middle

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of what we do, like you do, you can often break it down to supply and demand.

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So from the supply side, we've got the discipline. So the researchers.

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The opinions, the views, the practices coming in towards the worker.

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From the demand side, we have businesses with their assistants.

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What happens in the New Zealand context is they're colourblind.

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So the supply side, the researchers, the practitioners, the inspectors,

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the health and safety professionals have a colour blind.

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So they'll go straight to the demand side, which is the businesses,

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and they'll say X, Y and Z.

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The workers, the Maori workers are left out of the picture.

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And what usually happens after that is it's easier for both parties, the supply and demand,

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to raise the negative narrative, which

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is Māori workers are getting killed or

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harmed disproportionately high and we have the solution but

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the solution as the data shows just isn't working so the

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idea is to provide a lens for both the supply side and the demand side to see

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a bit more clearly the value of Māori culture and workplace health and safety

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I'm starting to give up on the supply side because it's really superficial because

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the supply side or the health and safety professionals they pick up little pieces but

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actually are they getting to the sense of protecting network they're probably

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not the demand side is is where we want to focus at the moment so placing.

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Businesses in a position where they've got that information using business language,

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so return on investment, cost of intervention, cost-benefit analysis.

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And me and Matata will provide that information and then they can make decisions

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because they should always be allowed to make decisions on whether to invest or not.

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So that's where I'm facing my work, more on the demand side.

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But obviously, the beneficiary one, at the end of the day, isn't the demand

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or the supply side, but a product or a genre of practice that's fit for purpose.

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That actually does reduce harms and fatalities.

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And because your background is so unique in that you spent some time really

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as an inspector, right? I mean, is that the right term, inspector?

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Yeah. As a safety professional on really, well,

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for you, both sides of the supply and the demand, do you find yourself as a translator,

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as a go-between, as you sort of can help organizations and cultures see the

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entries and exits between those two areas?

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Yeah, I mean, I love your language too. So a broker of good health and safety

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as it pertains to Māori workers is a good way to put it.

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But, you know, if we look a bit more deeper, and you're reflective of this,

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you know, critical thinkers in health and safety, there might be a few and far between.

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Those that challenge the status quo. So your work resonates with me because

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you're saying, actually, that's not quite right.

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I think this might be a better approach. Those critical thinkers need to be

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patted on the back and grown because there's few of us, actually,

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when we look at health and safety in the New Zealand setting,

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it's all about compliance, which is really easy to do.

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So audits, you know, I'll just do an audit and I'll tick a box.

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Yeah, everything's looking good.

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The thing with that is we start to buy in with the new age concept of work as

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imagined versus work as done.

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Right. So, yeah, so that's where it sort of starts to link in. So critical thought.

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I guess my background having walked both sides of the fence,

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I mean, in terms of mainstream New Zealand culture and Māori culture provides

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me with enough of an insight where I can start to develop practices or,

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you know, have views that are quite balanced.

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But the challenge is to get that Māori culture into modern health and safety,

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which is quite challenging, but it's worth it.

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I mean, it keeps me in a job, so to speak. Well, absolutely. And there you go.

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And one of the things, at least I see this here, and I'm super interested if

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you see it there, is that the.

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The indigenous cultures, at least in the New Mexico area, the ones I'm familiar

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with, the concept of zero events is really foreign and not – I mean,

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it's – if I may, and tell me if I'm wrong,

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the culture of cautiousness is a culture that's built not around the idea that

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nothing will happen, but in fact around the idea that something will happen.

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Yes, and that's probably the, yeah, that's the centre of it.

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I mean, caution, if you look in the dictionary, that's about,

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you know, foreseeing something that can happen and trying to prevent it happening.

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And trying to prevent, trying being a key word as well. Right.

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And I think your view is that.

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So it doesn't matter whether you're wrong or right. It does matter that you have a view.

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So again, we come back to critical thinking. So when we look at the international

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literature around Indigenous health and safety, debts.

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It's very negligible. And the narrative is largely negative.

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So looking at the international labour organisation, they're concerned with

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employment conditions.

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So the narrative when I read their stuff is, everything's bad for Indigenous

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workers, so we have to do something about it.

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But the doing something about it hasn't been done, so to speak.

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So we're stuck in this groundhog day of a negative narrative,

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which is actually, for your friends in New Mexico, actually starts to displace them a bit.

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Because if you're told you're useless, or you can't do anything about it,

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or people are going to do things about it, but they're not doing about it,

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over the decades, in the centuries, you actually start to develop an acquaintance bias.

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So you start to learn how to tell people what they want to hear in order to get them off their back.

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Whereas another narrative is, I recognize your values. I need to get those into

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play, so to speak, so that the conversations change.

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And I guess my role as a broker is to validate the voice of workers and their

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culture so it can be better understood, in this case, by businesses.

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What are things we could be doing now that would start to make a difference

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and increase the potential positive outcome of this type of dialogue?

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Yeah, so that's a real good question. So it's hard.

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It's hard for white people to understand brown people in terms of the cultural setting.

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And it's hard for brown people to talk to white people about cultural stuff

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because, again, it's really got them nowhere.

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So if you were to do things now, it would be to be, you know,

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just curious about other cultures.

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And then if you're a health and safety person, not to fudge around what usually happens sometimes,

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about the superficial stuff. But to ask direct questions, you know,

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do you have a value for caution?

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How do you keep your people safe? How did you keep your people safe?

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The overall thing you could do is to reprise the traditional stories.

00:18:01.530 --> 00:18:03.610
Health and safety is about good storytelling.

00:18:05.010 --> 00:18:11.850
Provide, reprise, find, have a nosey about those traditional stories and then

00:18:11.850 --> 00:18:18.350
try to think about those traditional stories and fast-forwarding them to health and safety today.

00:18:18.770 --> 00:18:26.310
And I think also when you place those practices or you start to develop those practices,

00:18:26.750 --> 00:18:31.910
keep the Indigenous people in the forefront in terms of talking with them because

00:18:31.910 --> 00:18:36.250
if we're an evidence-based practice like we like to say we are,

00:18:36.730 --> 00:18:39.610
the Indigenous views are largely left out.

00:18:39.610 --> 00:18:45.490
And if you can show in the evidence that here is the practice,

00:18:45.870 --> 00:18:50.470
here is the history, and here are the people today that are saying it's going

00:18:50.470 --> 00:18:54.170
to work, then in terms of the ammunition you need to be an influencer,

00:18:54.510 --> 00:18:56.810
you've got all three things in place.

00:18:57.070 --> 00:19:02.810
Evidence, influencers, you know, indigenous people, and a way forward,

00:19:02.970 --> 00:19:07.790
which is the new practice. So simple stuff, be curious, find those stories,

00:19:08.350 --> 00:19:11.150
try to think about how those stories can be modernized in health and safety.

00:19:11.750 --> 00:19:16.170
Is the assumption that the best resources for understanding Indigenous workers

00:19:16.170 --> 00:19:18.970
are Indigenous workers a fair and correct assumption?

00:19:19.630 --> 00:19:22.030
Yeah, no, that's a very fair, and I think it's quite apt as well,

00:19:22.090 --> 00:19:25.830
because Indigenous cultures, in terms of their history, are histories.

00:19:26.690 --> 00:19:29.050
Written history is quite slim.

00:19:30.030 --> 00:19:35.770
And so, yeah, you're spot on. Talking, conversations, finding those stories, which anyone can do.

00:19:36.010 --> 00:19:39.450
And a good health and safety practitioner, as you know, is a great storyteller.

00:19:40.770 --> 00:19:44.490
Yeah, already at some level probably really understands that. Yeah.

00:19:44.710 --> 00:19:51.330
But I wonder if they see that as a tool, as a way in to actually improve that

00:19:51.330 --> 00:19:54.850
relationship with indigenous workers really globally.

00:19:54.850 --> 00:20:02.550
But what great stories do you have of that very activity from the Maori culture

00:20:02.550 --> 00:20:05.670
and the work you're doing now? You must have some good ones.

00:20:06.297 --> 00:20:11.117
Yeah, so scaffolders are the bane of my life, scaffolding and scaffolders.

00:20:11.837 --> 00:20:13.677
I call them scaffoldists.

00:20:14.637 --> 00:20:16.897
They're more artists than science.

00:20:20.117 --> 00:20:25.477
And the bane in my practice life is probably the best potential for me to improve.

00:20:25.717 --> 00:20:28.197
So I work a bit with scaffolders now and again.

00:20:29.117 --> 00:20:33.797
So the scaffolding crew was putting something up, and I was saying,

00:20:33.917 --> 00:20:37.537
that doesn't look quite right. But I'm not a competent person in scaffolding.

00:20:37.597 --> 00:20:43.077
So my job there is to get the scaffolded to disclose to me, actually,

00:20:43.097 --> 00:20:46.097
that's not the right plans. I think we'll do this. So we had that conversation.

00:20:46.277 --> 00:20:50.657
And then a senior Māori worker came over and said, you know,

00:20:51.037 --> 00:20:54.697
prior to going, prior to erecting that structure, we should have had a good

00:20:54.697 --> 00:21:00.037
conversation about how we're going to put it up. Because we'll put it up and it's a bloody mess.

00:21:00.137 --> 00:21:02.437
And I was saying, yeah, what else do you think? He said, well,

00:21:02.637 --> 00:21:06.037
when we have those conversations, we're actually following a checklist.

00:21:06.297 --> 00:21:13.217
So we're complying with something. So it's a 100% compliance installation they

00:21:13.217 --> 00:21:15.557
did. But it was still wrong in practical means.

00:21:15.757 --> 00:21:17.997
So I said, well, what would you do? He said, well, you know,

00:21:18.237 --> 00:21:23.897
we've known about these problems in the past, but we retreat to the checklist or compliance.

00:21:24.037 --> 00:21:27.117
And everyone's happy, apart from you today, Vance. and I was saying,

00:21:27.217 --> 00:21:31.957
well, tell me what you think culturally you should have done before you put

00:21:31.957 --> 00:21:34.097
that up. He said, we should have had a cautious view.

00:21:34.357 --> 00:21:38.497
We should have had kia tu patou in mind. We knew that that was wrong,

00:21:38.557 --> 00:21:39.837
but we never spoke about it.

00:21:40.117 --> 00:21:45.377
And we knew when we put it up that there's a chance we would call out.

00:21:46.457 --> 00:21:52.117
So I said, well, you need – so I said, what prevents you from having those discussions?

00:21:52.177 --> 00:21:56.657
And he said, because the system doesn't allow us to. the system is focused on

00:21:56.657 --> 00:22:00.317
compliance so the law allows you to have those conversations.

00:22:01.130 --> 00:22:04.530
And so I spoke to the owner of the company, I said to you,

00:22:05.050 --> 00:22:09.270
if you want to add value, if you want to put up a fit for purpose structure,

00:22:09.270 --> 00:22:14.870
if you want your scaffoldies to be more engaging, if you want your company to

00:22:14.870 --> 00:22:19.230
be more responsive, you have to let those conversations occur. So we did it the next day.

00:22:19.730 --> 00:22:24.870
And the conversation went like this. Listen, we know we shouldn't do that. So why are we doing it?

00:22:25.330 --> 00:22:28.610
And obviously, because we want to pass the audit. And then the manager said,

00:22:28.770 --> 00:22:30.190
don't worry too much about the audit.

00:22:30.930 --> 00:22:36.330
Just do it because we're going to change the audit now to not only a tick box

00:22:36.330 --> 00:22:38.950
but more of an assessment type of approach.

00:22:39.190 --> 00:22:45.650
So they change their system to appreciate workers and their knowledge of what

00:22:45.650 --> 00:22:48.550
health and safety means. And I've got a few of those thoughts.

00:22:48.930 --> 00:22:52.810
I guess the main points are if you know something's wrong, have a chat about it.

00:22:53.030 --> 00:22:56.390
If you're worried about having a chat about it, have a chat about it even more

00:22:56.390 --> 00:22:59.250
and tell your manager or your boss why you're having that.

00:22:59.250 --> 00:23:04.090
Practical stuff in the New Zealand setting anyway most of the supervisors have

00:23:04.090 --> 00:23:07.890
come through the ranks or they've come off the tools so they'll understand those

00:23:07.890 --> 00:23:12.050
conversations but if you don't prompt them you're on a hiding tenner but culturally

00:23:12.050 --> 00:23:14.350
how do you create the space to have that conversation,

00:23:14.985 --> 00:23:19.645
Yeah, hard to do. Hence the practices, hence the evidence. So it takes a bit

00:23:19.645 --> 00:23:21.445
of courage, I suppose, from a Māori worker.

00:23:21.985 --> 00:23:25.385
And it takes a bit of acceptance from the business to those conversations,

00:23:25.565 --> 00:23:26.725
all that stuff's about to happen.

00:23:27.005 --> 00:23:30.145
And again, we'll come back to mea mautara, which is about the demanding.

00:23:30.465 --> 00:23:34.445
So providing the evidence that the return on investment is there makes sense to them.

00:23:35.205 --> 00:23:41.485
So it's more, I think it's a combination of hoping that a conversation will

00:23:41.485 --> 00:23:44.425
unfold, but more importantly, providing the incentives for that to occur.

00:23:44.625 --> 00:23:50.805
And hence, Mia Matara works at the demand end to provide a business case for

00:23:50.805 --> 00:23:56.245
businesses to make an investment decision, but also to allow those conversations to happen.

00:23:56.685 --> 00:23:59.705
And I guess underlying that is just having the stories around,

00:23:59.865 --> 00:24:03.505
such as you've asked, and documenting them, getting them out there,

00:24:03.965 --> 00:24:10.805
marketing them, communicating them to the middle line managers who will understand the practicality.

00:24:10.965 --> 00:24:14.785
I run across a lot of non-Mauri workers that think they're Maori workers because

00:24:14.785 --> 00:24:18.405
they've got a value for caution, because they share the same socioeconomic status.

00:24:18.725 --> 00:24:24.405
Yeah, which makes sense to me. And I really think all of a sudden the supply-demand

00:24:24.405 --> 00:24:28.545
model becomes really powerful when you think about the fact that you'll have

00:24:28.545 --> 00:24:34.705
those conversations if the organization sees a need to create a space to have that conversation.

00:24:35.225 --> 00:24:38.505
How significant are gender roles?

00:24:38.945 --> 00:24:44.545
I know culturally they're incredibly significant, but how significant do those play?

00:24:44.985 --> 00:24:48.405
I don't know. I haven't looked into it, but what I could say is that gender

00:24:48.405 --> 00:24:52.265
analysis is quite thin, but gender actions is becoming bigger in New Zealand.

00:24:52.405 --> 00:24:54.105
I think that's got to do with the workforce.

00:24:54.585 --> 00:24:59.665
More women able to do more men's jobs, more or less men doing those jobs.

00:25:00.065 --> 00:25:06.625
So in terms of Māori culture, not unsimilar to other Indigenous cultures.

00:25:07.805 --> 00:25:12.585
Māori women have a specific role to play in terms of both supporting the whānau

00:25:12.585 --> 00:25:15.845
of the family, but also leading in certain aspects.

00:25:16.225 --> 00:25:21.585
Modern society these days, in terms of Māori, the role of Māori men has been

00:25:21.585 --> 00:25:25.365
dissipated because there's a lot of solo mothers out there. So their leadership

00:25:25.365 --> 00:25:29.125
skills are starting to come to the fore.

00:25:29.285 --> 00:25:31.545
Some of our top Māori leaders are women.

00:25:32.045 --> 00:25:34.005
Māori me don't like to admit that, but it's true.

00:25:35.663 --> 00:25:38.443
And it's really interesting. Yeah, sorry.

00:25:38.563 --> 00:25:41.463
Sorry, Todd. It's really interesting because when you look at an international

00:25:41.463 --> 00:25:47.203
status of indigenous Maori woman, they're still carrying baskets on the heads, you know, so, yeah.

00:25:47.203 --> 00:25:52.983
And yet when you go to a Maori function, you really see the very,

00:25:53.143 --> 00:25:55.583
very important leadership role that Maori women play.

00:25:55.843 --> 00:26:00.343
And it's the analogous that I would give you to it is it's the same thing I

00:26:00.343 --> 00:26:02.623
see when I go to the Navajo Nation.

00:26:02.883 --> 00:26:09.563
And I'll see a really strong – that if I really want to have strong impact,

00:26:09.903 --> 00:26:14.983
I find that the women will provide that way in.

00:26:14.983 --> 00:26:19.903
That they will help increase that supply side for me if we use this supply and

00:26:19.903 --> 00:26:22.663
demand model as an important model.

00:26:23.803 --> 00:26:28.883
I think when you look at your experience, Western views or Maori views have

00:26:28.883 --> 00:26:32.983
obscured or just misrepresented Maori culture in a number of ways.

00:26:33.103 --> 00:26:36.063
So there's a view that Maori women don't speak on the marae.

00:26:36.183 --> 00:26:39.683
But if you recall, when you went to your meeting, the first voice you heard

00:26:39.683 --> 00:26:42.223
was the calling on to the marae.

00:26:42.323 --> 00:26:46.603
And that was done by a Maori woman. The first voice you hear is the Māori woman.

00:26:47.043 --> 00:26:50.223
So to say they don't speak on the Māori, and if they don't get it right,

00:26:50.463 --> 00:26:52.703
the whole tone of the meaning can change.

00:26:52.963 --> 00:26:59.963
But they never get it wrong because they know exactly from their history, from their training,

00:27:00.403 --> 00:27:07.083
from their instincts, that they have to settle the manuhiri or the visitors

00:27:07.083 --> 00:27:09.443
going on to the Māori. And that's exactly what they do.

00:27:10.303 --> 00:27:15.763
Yeah, and I remember that vividly. I also remember then standing as a group

00:27:15.763 --> 00:27:24.643
and getting food, and we were having some remarkable lamb, some sheep, and then some fry bread.

00:27:25.347 --> 00:27:30.407
And a Maori woman came up to me and she said, certainly you must see a connection

00:27:30.407 --> 00:27:33.427
between where you live and where we live.

00:27:33.847 --> 00:27:37.127
And I was like, oh, my gosh, yes, it's all I'm thinking about.

00:27:37.247 --> 00:27:41.827
And she said, you know, welcome, because that connection is very real.

00:27:41.827 --> 00:27:43.547
And it's something that she had studied.

00:27:43.607 --> 00:27:46.267
And it was a really interesting conversation.

00:27:46.767 --> 00:27:53.087
I think it made a huge difference. The work you're doing is so important because

00:27:53.087 --> 00:27:58.887
the expertise to understanding really how these cultures function and even introducing

00:27:58.887 --> 00:28:03.307
this idea of a history of caution is a very,

00:28:03.667 --> 00:28:09.527
believe it or not, it's a very, very new way to understand safety.

00:28:09.527 --> 00:28:12.867
It's what you said during this entire conversation.

00:28:13.207 --> 00:28:17.647
It's also, I think, an opportunity for all of us to learn.

00:28:18.067 --> 00:28:23.207
And I think it's significant. What do you see as kind of your next steps?

00:28:23.367 --> 00:28:24.667
Where do you want all this to go?

00:28:25.007 --> 00:28:29.027
Aside from the fact that we want to reduce harm and injury, we definitely want

00:28:29.027 --> 00:28:30.607
to reduce fatalities for sure.

00:28:30.827 --> 00:28:36.407
That's absolutely all of our goals. But how can we become better based upon the work you're doing?

00:28:37.027 --> 00:28:39.567
I'm still thinking about the word fried bread because you mentioned it.

00:28:39.627 --> 00:28:44.807
So if I get over that, if I get over fried bread, I'd say this.

00:28:44.967 --> 00:28:49.907
When you come to New Mexico, I promise you this, I will absolutely hook you

00:28:49.907 --> 00:28:53.047
up with the best fried bread you've ever had in your life. So I'm there for you.

00:28:54.287 --> 00:28:58.007
I'm there, you're there for me. Back to your question. I suppose a better word.

00:28:58.187 --> 00:28:58.987
All right, back to your question.

00:28:59.227 --> 00:29:03.747
I'm in the business of putting in play a news genre of health and safety practice

00:29:03.747 --> 00:29:10.827
that's based on Maori culture that can link with or connect with modern health

00:29:10.827 --> 00:29:11.967
and safety practices here.

00:29:12.107 --> 00:29:17.007
I think the unique practice will be better fit for purpose for Maori workers

00:29:17.007 --> 00:29:20.347
and other vulnerable workers because it just resonates.

00:29:20.587 --> 00:29:23.527
So caution's resonated with you today. It resonates on a number.

00:29:25.307 --> 00:29:30.727
I think the next steps for me is to get through this PhD and to put Mia Matara

00:29:30.727 --> 00:29:33.647
out. So Mia Matata is one of the flagship pieces of work.

00:29:33.807 --> 00:29:37.507
So over the next few months, we'll be marketing that and having different conversations.

00:29:37.807 --> 00:29:40.227
Thanks again, Todd, for providing the platform.

00:29:40.667 --> 00:29:46.747
I think the outcome I'm looking for is a sense of comfort from people,

00:29:47.107 --> 00:29:49.147
whether they're in health and safety or not.

00:29:49.947 --> 00:29:55.147
Maori culture in health and safety is not threatening. It's actually an asset.

00:29:55.147 --> 00:30:02.367
And the research is required to validate that value.

00:30:03.707 --> 00:30:05.427
It's nice that influence is...

00:30:06.542 --> 00:30:13.522
Say things, but we can't go past the evidence because that provides the decision-making

00:30:13.522 --> 00:30:16.762
processes that businesses have to make. So, yeah.

00:30:17.862 --> 00:30:21.022
I mean, I'd love just to say X, Y, and Z.

00:30:21.262 --> 00:30:25.382
And sometimes, most times, they actually work because of who I am.

00:30:25.442 --> 00:30:26.942
So I can go and work, so I say, we should do this.

00:30:27.162 --> 00:30:30.282
But in the back of my head, I'm saying, actually, I should be a bit more fairer.

00:30:30.442 --> 00:30:31.542
I should give you the evidence.

00:30:31.882 --> 00:30:37.122
So the lack of evidence is a big problem. me and Matata starts to address those gaps.

00:30:37.642 --> 00:30:41.562
And I think you're perfectly right. Anyone can do a number of things,

00:30:41.582 --> 00:30:44.242
but come back into one of your previous questions.

00:30:44.422 --> 00:30:50.522
Just be curious, find those stories and modernize those stories is the best thing you can do.

00:30:51.042 --> 00:30:54.002
So how can people contact you?

00:30:54.162 --> 00:30:58.622
Because lots of people are going to want to contact you. What's a good way to

00:30:58.622 --> 00:31:00.262
start building that network?

00:31:01.262 --> 00:31:05.222
I had a meeting a couple of nights ago with a marketing and branding company

00:31:05.222 --> 00:31:08.262
that I can't remember because they were using words that I've never heard.

00:31:09.942 --> 00:31:13.842
So that's coming. So there'll be some branding. And Mia Matara is the portals.

00:31:14.082 --> 00:31:22.022
So I'd say go to my LinkedIn post page, which can be VK Walker at LinkedIn or

00:31:22.022 --> 00:31:27.262
Haumaru HS, which is my company's work page,

00:31:28.522 --> 00:31:39.522
and hashtag M-A-T-A-A-R-A is going to be getting you hooked up with all the

00:31:39.522 --> 00:31:41.142
information and the research that we've done.

00:31:41.422 --> 00:31:46.602
And what you've done today is amazing because the value for caution,

00:31:46.802 --> 00:31:48.482
I promise you that's going to stick.

00:31:48.662 --> 00:31:50.722
People will talk to you about that.

00:31:51.002 --> 00:31:55.722
That's going to be a huge part of this conversation. So what a treat. Thank you, my friend.

00:31:56.639 --> 00:32:04.639
Thank you. Nga mihi tō whakaaro me ranga hau, me karathia.

00:32:04.839 --> 00:32:11.479
I salute you for your work, for your thinking, for your research, and for being a goer.

00:32:12.039 --> 00:32:17.739
Karathia means a goer. Be a doer, be a karathia. So you're a goer, Tom. Thank you, sir.

00:32:18.359 --> 00:32:21.039
What a treat. I can't wait to meet you in real life.

00:32:25.879 --> 00:32:28.979
So what'd you think i told you this whole

00:32:28.979 --> 00:32:35.259
value for caution which which i immediately translated into this idea of of

00:32:35.259 --> 00:32:44.039
risk competency of of of approaching assessing and managing control in real

00:32:44.039 --> 00:32:47.419
time which i think is kind of the definition of the word caution,

00:32:48.239 --> 00:32:55.919
that's a really powerful message and a really important cultural fit in every culture.

00:32:56.119 --> 00:32:58.879
We can learn from each other, you guys, and we should be.

00:32:59.259 --> 00:33:03.919
We need to, we have to. I think in a world full of uncertainty,

00:33:03.919 --> 00:33:08.059
like we talked about at the beginning, the best thing we can do is increase

00:33:08.059 --> 00:33:13.499
diversity of thought and embrace one another's values.

00:33:14.219 --> 00:33:17.759
Learn something new every single day. Bet you did today. It's a big day for that today.

00:33:18.299 --> 00:33:20.439
Have as much fun as you possibly can. Be good to each other.

00:33:20.499 --> 00:33:22.299
Be kind to each other. Check in on one another.

00:33:23.259 --> 00:33:25.639
Value caution. And for goodness sakes, you're going to...

00:33:25.520 --> 00:33:37.912
Music.