PSPof 531 - Marc Yeston Redux - Navigating Safety: The Fine Line Between Manipulation and Design

Show Transcript

WEBVTT

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So, yeah, this podcast is brought to you by Milo's Sweet Tea. Milo's Sweet Tea.

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Made in Bessemer. Is that where it says Bessemer, Alabama?

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I can't read it on my glasses on, but it says no calorie, but it sure doesn't

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taste like no calorie. It's delish, isn't it? It's perfectly delicious.

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It's really good. Oh, shit. Oh.

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Music.

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Hi everybody welcome to the pre-accident podcast i am your loving host todd

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conklin how are you today are you good it is september the month of the bluegrass

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festival i know i talk about it a lot but it's because i rented a golf cart

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and you know any place where i can drive a golf cart.

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I'm in my happy place. That is my happy space.

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I'm happiest when I'm golf carting-ish, driving, whatever I'm trying to say.

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Hey, anyway, I hope the gear's going good. Can you believe it?

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It's the ninth month. What happened?

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You turn around and, zam, it's gone. I'm just coming back off gigantic travel,

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like Herculean travel, crazy travel.

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And it was crazy because a better person would have scheduled this differently,

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but I was in Europe and then I had to go to Asia.

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And I had it all worked out perfectly that I could have like three days at home in between there.

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Except that coming back from Europe, my plane got messed up in London and I

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got trapped 20 minutes at a time. They wouldn't just tell me it was delayed.

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It was, we'll be going in 20 minutes or in 20 minutes, this thing will fly in

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20 minutes, 20 minutes at a time.

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We were like 10 hours late. Thank you, United.

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And by the time I got in, there wasn't enough time to go home for the weekend.

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So then I had to go directly to Asia and I had no clean clothes.

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Luckily, where I stay, there's lots of clean clothes.

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You'll hear more about this Asia trip, I'm sure, because I recorded a great

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podcast with some people in Asia because I was there and we were working together.

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And so I thought, why not?

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I can't think of a reason why not.

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And other than that, you know, I'm suffering a bit of burnout.

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I'll just be honest with you. I think I'm burning the candle at both ends and

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And it's burning towards the middle. And I can feel it.

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Today it hit especially hard. Darn it.

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I'm sure it's a combination of being jet lagged and just exhausted and not feeling

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good. And you know how it goes.

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All these things, you also suffer. But it's exciting because the world is...

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It's, man, companies that are doing the safety difference stuff are really getting better.

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I mean, they're starting to see improvement, and there's all these testimonials,

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and there's all these people out there in the world excited.

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So that part's good. I mean, you know, it's all pretty good,

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he says, which seems intellectually lazy, but that's kind of where I am anyway.

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I feel intellectually lazy. It's the September part of it.

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School's starting, at least in the United States, for those of us who hang out there.

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And so we're kind of back into the groove it's just

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a matter of time till weather hits us i just heard

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this weekend that it's supposed to be a very snowy but warm winter at least

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for us i don't know what that means actually lots of melting i guess so that

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should be fun as well and we've got a podcast for you because this is a podcast

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and that's why we're here and if you could tell from the introduction this podcast

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by the way isn't really sponsored by milo's tea tea.

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It's the, the, those great people at Alabama power in Tuscaloosa sent me a case

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of Milo's tea and I liked it.

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And I said, I liked it. I must've said I liked it loud enough that somebody heard me say I like it.

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And so the payoff was to give me some tea.

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So we were drinking Milo's tea when we were recording this. And that's why we

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did the fake sponsorship.

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But if I had to sponsor Milo's tea would be one I'd sponsor.

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It's really good. It's delicious tea. There's no question about it.

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Delicious is the word I would use. But I was talking with Mark Yeston.

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And this podcast episode is an interesting one, because this has been kind of

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an ongoing discussion around the five principles.

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So my premise is, is that we're getting kind of far away from the principles

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that we've initially, not we, but that were initially established to sort of

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look at human and organizational performance, and have been sort of the fathers

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and mothers of the new view.

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And so I've talked about the principles. In fact, I talked about them this year,

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and I'm working on a book on the five principles.

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One of those principles is the notion that context drives behavior,

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that behavior is a function of the organization's context.

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And Mark Yeston, whom you all know from his incredible experience with the Park

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Service and the work he does,

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all over the world with pre-job, post-job, he's really good with adaptive workers

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who work in high-risk areas, like he's great with linemen,

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firemen, helicopter rescue people, that kind of stuff, emergency medicine,

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wilderness doctors, knolls. He does all that kind of stuff, right?

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So he was talking to me about this idea that, in fact, if context truly drives

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behavior, then isn't that manipulation?

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And he was saying it kind of put air quotes around manipulation as if it were

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sort of a morally bankrupt way to manage behavior.

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And so that's kind of what this podcast talks about, because that's a really

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good question. I mean, is advertising manipulation?

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Well, the quick answer is yes, it is. Is the way they design grocery stores

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manipulation? Yeah, that's manipulation.

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Is the way you have to shop on Amazon if you do online shopping manipulation?

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People who bought this also bought this, right? All those things are there to

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provide context, and that context then provides behavioral stimuli.

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It gives you a reason to do what you do.

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And that really is that third principle that we talk about a lot.

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And whether it's manipulation, bad word, or manipulation, good word,

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maybe that's something we should talk about.

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And so that is exactly what we did. And so that is this podcast.

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So if I'll shut up, you could actually hear this podcast, and that would be

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pretty cool too. So sit back and relax, open up your jar of Milo's tea,

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and listen to Mark and I discuss this very idea out loud in public on this very topic.

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Music.

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Okay, so how's it going? What are you up to now?

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Good, Todd. It's nice to see you. It's nice to be back at the podcast studios.

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I love what you did with the parking lot, adding some additional spaces for

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all the coming and going.

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Although that guy that collects the fees is kind of cranky. Does it feel good to be a part of it?

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Oh, it's huge, yeah. You're happening in the podcast land?

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Yeah, I love it. It's better than like birthdays at Denny's.

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Birthdays at Denny's. So what you're doing with the new view stuff?

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What you're doing with safety stuff? What are you thinking about now?

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I think about this idea of talking to people about how systems influence what workers do.

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So that seems to be a big deal. That's one of the big five principles that context drives behavior.

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And you asked about that earlier this morning. What is it about that that bugs you?

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Well, nothing bugs me about it. Oh, sorry. I didn't mean to – I didn't want

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to put words in your mouth. Yeah. Let me ask it this way. Why on earth would

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you ask me that question?

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Because I'm just curious about the examples that you use when you're talking

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to people about this stuff.

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And then you brought up a couple of great examples, actually several really

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good examples that I think make sense. And then we kind of like tore that apart a little bit.

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You're starting off talking about grocery stores and how the way the grocery

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store is set up. You know, I mean, people frequently, if they're going on an

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unplanned visit to the grocery store, just going to pick up some milk, a quick in and out.

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And of course, the milk is strategically located as far away from the front

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door as possible. So you have to go buy all the cool stuff.

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And, you know, on your way back out with your milk, you think like,

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hey, here's the Hershey's syrup. Need some of that, too.

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And I think that people there's a transparency to it.

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I mean, we know that we're kind of, for lack of a better word, being manipulated.

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We know that we're being steered a little bit in our behavior and we kind of

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accept it. And then you talked about that fantastic anecdote of the bicycles

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getting damaged in shipping. You want to explain that real quick?

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That's the one where the guy was having bicycles. He was shipping them from

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Europe to the United States.

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They weren't getting damaged in shipping. They were getting damaged between

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the time they took them out of the transportainers and put them on like the FedEx truck. Right.

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And so they changed – they worried about it a long time and they thought about

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it and, oh, what should we do? a bigger box, stronger box, put giant fragile signs on it.

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And they ended up just printing a 70-inch big screen TV on the box.

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Right. So the box looks like it has a 70-inch TV in it, but in reality, it has a bicycle.

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So long story short. Super effective. Yeah, it totally worked because the stevedores,

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the guys who unload the transportainers, care more about 70-inch TVs than they do care about bicycles.

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Right. A bicycle is much less fragile than a TV, and so you might be more inclined

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to think, oh, I can toss this and stack them a little bit higher,

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but I don't want to mess up somebody's TV. Totally makes sense.

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But then my thought about that was if I'm the worker and I'm tossing those or

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being very careful with those boxes that look like they're holding someone's

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expensive flat screen TV and one breaks open and one's always going to break

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open eventually and I find a bicycle inside,

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I'm going to feel a little bit misled.

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Right. And that's the part I find interesting because you see the grocery store

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putting the milk in the back,

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right, or the expensive items at eye level or printing a TV on a bicycle box.

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You see that as trickery.

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I see it as non-transparent. See, if I go into the grocery store,

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I'm joining in on the – Is that how a rich guy says trickery? Well, I wouldn't know.

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Can I say chicanery? Chicanery is even better. Yes, it's chicanery.

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But no, I think like when you can understand pretty easily that the grocery

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store is there trying to manipulate you and sell you and there's all kinds of cool stuff there.

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But it's like – so let's say instead of labeling that box with a TV,

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you put high explosives. If you drop this, it's going to vaporize you,

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and then you found out there was a bicycle in the bag. You would think like,

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hey, man, don't they give me some credit for this kind of thing?

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Well, kind of. I mean, well, I actually think the high explosives would be –

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you're introducing a lot of confounding variables into the argument.

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No, I'm sorry. It's a Saturday, and we just ate some delicious Mexican food. And Milo's Sweet Tea.

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And Milo's Sweet Tea brought to you by Milo's Sweet Tea. I love sweet tea. Thanks, Delane.

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So what's interesting to me is – and I really am kind of fixated on it – is

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that manipulation to you, you see as less than transparent.

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No, I'm talking about – forgetting transparency. I'm thinking about durability.

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And so the minute that first box cracks open and the person loading the boxes

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sees that they were being influenced by a false message, the whole thing makes sense to them.

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But then they will know from that period forward that a box that looks like

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this that says TV is actually a bicycle.

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I don't have to be as careful with it. You know, that ruse didn't work on me.

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Now, take that to the other example we talked about with the additive tanks.

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Right. Now, I love that. That's elegant. And so describe that for the folks really quick.

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Okay. So imagine four long, skinny, pencil-shaped tanks.

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They're long and skinny tanks, and they're maybe – let's say they're 30 feet

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high, and they're in a row, and they're all in a line. and they're about a meter apart.

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That's about three feet. That's if you're left-handed. Or $1.80 Canadian.

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That's right. There you go. Go ahead and calculate.

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So I did an investigation where a person had to climb up a ladder,

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go to the top of the tank, check something,

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climb back down the ladder, go to the tank next to it, climb up that tank,

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go to the top and check it, climb down that ladder, go to the one next to it.

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There's five tanks in a row.

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And he had to check all five of those tanks, which means he has to climb up

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five ladders and down five ladders unless he stays on the tank,

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which would be four and a half ladders. But let's say he's coming down, so five ladders.

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But amazingly enough, what was happening, they're a meter apart,

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is the guy was jumping from tank to tank.

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Or even just like going from guardrail to guardrail, like having two or three

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points of contact and making that leap, which works every time until.

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Right. It didn't. Right. And, you know, so let's say you can have three points

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of contact the entire time.

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And let's say he's done it a long time and it's normally pretty safe.

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I mean, clearly, if it's safe like that, it's incredibly efficient because workers

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really count on efficiency. because if I don't have to make 10 steps today,

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I'm actually 10 steps ahead of tomorrow.

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So workers being like water are going to look for the path of least resistance. People.

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Right, right. Okay, people being like water are going to look for the path of

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least resistance. And so the guy jumped between them.

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So the question is, is he an idiot?

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Is he next on the list of LinkedIn videos that people show, which drive me bananas?

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Me too. All these like, look how dumb this guy is. They made scaffolding out

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of bamboo in India. Don't be this guy. That's right.

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Or, in fact, can we look at that and say the system has some influence on that?

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Because if the tanks were farther away apart, so let's say the tanks were 10 feet apart.

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Then you wouldn't consider jumping between them. Because unless you're Spider-Man, you can't do it.

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But last week I was at a facility and they had the same thing,

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five pencil-thin tanks, 30 feet high.

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But on one end, they had this beautiful, very gracious and casual staircase

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that led up with landings and a nice pitch, seven-inch rise.

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It was a great staircase.

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When you got on top of tank one, lo and behold, there was a catwalk to tank

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two and to tank three and to tank four and to tank five.

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And at tank five, there was an emergency egress, a climbing ladder with a cage

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and a parapet crossing. But you wouldn't be trapped.

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So you wouldn't be trapped on one side if the tanks blew up.

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And I will tell you that they will never have a person jump from tank to tank.

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Now, they built a system that manipulates the worker's behavior towards using the catwalk.

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Is that trickery? Okay, so I don't think it's trickery. Okay, is that chicanery?

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Chicanery. No, not even. What I think is it's fantastic and thoughtful design

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in the fact that the worker or the person looking at it would never be aware

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unless they thought about it or someone told them why it was designed that way.

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But once they discovered that they were using it in the way that it was designed

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and it was designed with that safety in mind to not – it wouldn't even occur

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to a worker to jump among tanks because that would actually mean more work.

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Then if they saw what the design was, if it was explained to them or they just

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realized it over time or compared it to the initial tanks you talked about with

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the individual ladders, they would appreciate it. They would think like –.

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Time was taken and design was

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thought to make this as safe and easy and efficient as possible for me.

00:15:10.073 --> 00:15:13.253
And of course, also for the company. And that would leave a better taste in

00:15:13.253 --> 00:15:16.833
my mouth than the box cracking open and saying, hey, it's a bicycle,

00:15:16.973 --> 00:15:20.153
not a TV, even though it works. And yet I would suggest it's the same thing.

00:15:20.333 --> 00:15:23.513
And so if you look at principle three, context drives behavior.

00:15:24.353 --> 00:15:28.733
The sort of the metric I would use, the definition I would use for that is we

00:15:28.733 --> 00:15:34.193
should make it easy for the worker to do it safely and hard for the worker to do it dangerously. Yes.

00:15:34.593 --> 00:15:39.473
Okay. So if we do that, right, then we're actually building towards the collective

00:15:39.473 --> 00:15:41.453
goal of both the worker and the organization.

00:15:41.813 --> 00:15:44.673
But in fact, the organization is getting exactly what it wants.

00:15:44.733 --> 00:15:50.653
It's getting safe and reliable performance without injury and all five tanks get checked. Right.

00:15:51.093 --> 00:15:54.893
So is that bad? No, I don't think it's bad. But grocery stores are bad.

00:15:54.893 --> 00:15:56.433
No, I don't think grocery stores are bad.

00:15:56.553 --> 00:15:59.893
I think they're varying levels of perception.

00:16:00.133 --> 00:16:03.673
So let me ask this. Is advertising immoral? No, I don't think so.

00:16:04.451 --> 00:16:07.631
Especially not the Geico ads. I love that lizard, all the stuff they're doing.

00:16:07.651 --> 00:16:11.791
Everyone loves that lizard. Yeah. But the Geico ad, the one to watch is Flo.

00:16:12.311 --> 00:16:15.471
Yeah, yeah. She's cool, too. I think Flo is very interesting.

00:16:15.611 --> 00:16:21.631
But this notion that somehow workers exercise free agency and that every accident,

00:16:21.971 --> 00:16:26.471
LinkedIn, here it comes, is a function of the worker being stupid is,

00:16:26.671 --> 00:16:31.471
in my opinion, and I could be wrong, I actually do think that's immoral.

00:16:31.671 --> 00:16:35.551
I think that's malpractice. I think if you look at the worker and say the worker

00:16:35.551 --> 00:16:39.991
had a choice and the worker chose to do it in a dangerous way,

00:16:40.211 --> 00:16:43.791
therefore the worker got injured and somehow you're implying that the worker

00:16:43.791 --> 00:16:45.411
then therefore deserves to get injured.

00:16:46.031 --> 00:16:47.791
I don't know. I have a pretty hard time with that.

00:16:48.851 --> 00:16:53.791
So what do we do with it? I just like to work in a place that I can – once I

00:16:53.791 --> 00:16:55.851
see the design and I see the thought behind it,

00:16:55.951 --> 00:17:00.851
I realize that it's the way I probably would have done it if I had the budget

00:17:00.851 --> 00:17:04.491
and I had the engineering control over doing it. Let me ask this question. Yeah.

00:17:04.731 --> 00:17:10.351
Your entire career, you worked with guests who interfaced with national parks. We call them visitors.

00:17:10.551 --> 00:17:13.691
I'm sorry, visitors who interfaced with national parks.

00:17:14.151 --> 00:17:19.391
How did you manage their behavior to keep them from stepping on,

00:17:19.851 --> 00:17:25.631
I don't know, exotic lichen that only lives in one place or maybe turtles or,

00:17:25.671 --> 00:17:27.311
I don't know, keep them on the trail?

00:17:27.411 --> 00:17:31.911
What did you do? It's a balancing act because we would try to give people information

00:17:31.911 --> 00:17:38.751
that they could relate to without overdoing it and in doing so having them disregard it,

00:17:38.791 --> 00:17:42.791
thinking they were just being handheld and over-parented when they were visiting

00:17:42.791 --> 00:17:44.791
the parks, which is a problem.

00:17:45.051 --> 00:17:48.571
Like you stay in lots of hotels in the great state of California, right?

00:17:48.931 --> 00:17:54.031
Yes. And pretty decent hotels too, I'm sure. If you count Camp Electric as a decent hotel.

00:17:54.251 --> 00:17:58.371
And I do. And every one of those hotels you walk into has a nice-looking placard

00:17:58.371 --> 00:18:02.771
on each floor that says, there are chemicals in this hotel known by the state

00:18:02.771 --> 00:18:04.891
of California to cause birth defects and cancer.

00:18:05.471 --> 00:18:09.011
And there's absolutely nothing for you to do about that. Right. Now, you do see those.

00:18:09.351 --> 00:18:12.611
They're everywhere, by law. When you get on an airplane, same thing.

00:18:12.831 --> 00:18:15.451
And so people are bombarded by all of these messages that say,

00:18:15.511 --> 00:18:17.851
you know, the hazards are real, the hazards are real. It's very, very dangerous.

00:18:18.011 --> 00:18:22.331
And then they know in their heart, well, a lot of this is not completely true,

00:18:22.331 --> 00:18:26.871
Or a lot of this is, you know, to protect for some liability or meet some sort of like, you know,

00:18:27.291 --> 00:18:30.311
legislative or regulatory concern and doesn't truly apply to me or I'm willing

00:18:30.311 --> 00:18:33.491
to stay in this hotel and probably not going to get a birth defect because,

00:18:33.591 --> 00:18:34.451
you know, I'm already born.

00:18:35.851 --> 00:18:38.391
Yeah. Okay. That is helpful. Yeah.

00:18:39.632 --> 00:18:44.792
And so when you tell people, like, honestly, don't pet the bison, you know.

00:18:45.052 --> 00:18:51.352
Yeah, that guy got, he got, like, he got 18 days in jail or something, 20 days in jail?

00:18:51.472 --> 00:18:55.772
Yeah, some jail time and some mandatory drug and alcohol treatment and a ban

00:18:55.772 --> 00:18:59.172
from the parks for five years and all that kind of stuff. So he was drunk?

00:18:59.572 --> 00:19:02.532
He was, apparently. I mean, I guess it's been adjudicated now,

00:19:02.612 --> 00:19:05.312
but, yeah, that's what I understand from popular media reports.

00:19:05.312 --> 00:19:08.712
Speaking entirely as someone who has quite a history with Buffalo,

00:19:08.952 --> 00:19:13.232
and I don't know if you know this, podcast listeners, but I have quite a history

00:19:13.232 --> 00:19:15.752
with Buffalo. Someday I'll tell you the whole story.

00:19:16.552 --> 00:19:21.852
He was kind of a brave dude. Yeah, or very drunk. Yeah, or very drunk.

00:19:22.112 --> 00:19:25.172
And there's a fine line between very brave and very drunk.

00:19:25.172 --> 00:19:28.172
But if we're warning people in their hotel rooms, like, don't use this iron

00:19:28.172 --> 00:19:30.512
to get the wrinkles out of the clothing that you're wearing,

00:19:30.672 --> 00:19:33.152
and then we tell them don't go pet the bison,

00:19:33.672 --> 00:19:38.532
then they think maybe we're being overprotective or don't swim in the hot springs.

00:19:38.772 --> 00:19:40.432
So how do you find that balance?

00:19:41.172 --> 00:19:45.032
You can try to be as transparent as possible. And you try to tell people,

00:19:45.332 --> 00:19:49.152
you know, you try not to overwarn. Well, they went through this a bunch at Grand

00:19:49.152 --> 00:19:52.732
Canyon back in the 90s when there was a spate of heat fatalities,

00:19:52.832 --> 00:19:54.272
people just like dehydrating.

00:19:55.012 --> 00:19:59.192
They tried all kinds of approaches and they tried a heavy handed approach,

00:19:59.352 --> 00:20:01.392
like actual stop signs on the trail.

00:20:01.652 --> 00:20:06.652
Do not go past this stop sign after this time of the day because conditions are so dangerous.

00:20:06.772 --> 00:20:12.672
And if you do and you require rescue, you will be fined and humiliated and all these other things.

00:20:12.772 --> 00:20:15.032
And those lasted for a couple of years. And what we found there.

00:20:15.212 --> 00:20:19.052
How well they work. Well, what we found there is that people would go past the signs, of course.

00:20:19.212 --> 00:20:21.332
It would turn some people around. People would go past the signs and then they

00:20:21.332 --> 00:20:24.252
would get in trouble. And when they got in trouble, they were reluctant to call

00:20:24.252 --> 00:20:27.412
for assistance because they knew they were going to face all kinds of humiliation

00:20:27.412 --> 00:20:30.272
and sanction and possible fines and things like that.

00:20:30.352 --> 00:20:35.832
And they would get themselves into more trouble by not calling for help in a timely manner.

00:20:36.797 --> 00:20:39.897
So then it went more to educational campaigns.

00:20:40.077 --> 00:20:42.237
It's really interesting. I actually went to educational campaigns like,

00:20:42.237 --> 00:20:44.877
you know, hydrate or die, you know, drink, drink, drink.

00:20:45.297 --> 00:20:49.757
And then they created this unintended consequence where people were actually

00:20:49.757 --> 00:20:53.837
over-hydrating and getting into this situation that was called hyponatremia

00:20:53.837 --> 00:20:54.877
without getting too detailed.

00:20:55.037 --> 00:20:59.037
They're basically water intoxicated. They overdid it trying to comply with the rule.

00:20:59.337 --> 00:21:02.357
They'd fill themselves up with water. They'd go down there and sweat.

00:21:02.477 --> 00:21:04.417
They wouldn't eat any salty foods. And they would get into this,

00:21:04.437 --> 00:21:07.457
you know, pretty serious metabolic problem that ended up sending a whole bunch

00:21:07.457 --> 00:21:09.837
of them to the ICU for weeks at a time.

00:21:10.457 --> 00:21:14.297
And then they finally came back to a more moderate message, which is,

00:21:14.437 --> 00:21:18.117
you know, not like an enforcement thing, like go past here, you're going to get in trouble.

00:21:18.597 --> 00:21:22.857
But, you know, eat and drink as you go in and out of here and here are things to consider.

00:21:23.417 --> 00:21:27.457
And then really successfully, they actually put some, got some funding and put

00:21:27.457 --> 00:21:32.957
some, you know, volunteers and newbie rangers on the trail to just kind of talk to people.

00:21:32.957 --> 00:21:37.317
Like, hey, I see you and your Chihuahua and your Diet Pepsi are planning to

00:21:37.317 --> 00:21:40.197
hike to the bottom of the canyon. It's 135 degrees down there today.

00:21:40.297 --> 00:21:41.717
Maybe we can suggest a different hike.

00:21:41.857 --> 00:21:44.797
And they would just, in a friendly way, turn those people around and give them some education.

00:21:44.997 --> 00:21:50.457
That really, really helped. And didn't you also cache water and food along the trail?

00:21:50.997 --> 00:21:55.637
Yeah, under lock and key. I wasn't supposed to say that. Was that a secret?

00:21:55.877 --> 00:21:57.477
Yeah, that's a secret. Or we'll edit this out.

00:21:57.737 --> 00:21:59.977
Don't you worry. This will be edited out in a minute.

00:22:00.637 --> 00:22:04.677
Oreos too, Todd. Really? Yeah. Really? Because if you're telling somebody that,

00:22:04.677 --> 00:22:07.837
you know, they're going to have to spend the night down there and they're not

00:22:07.837 --> 00:22:09.657
going to get eaten by something, they're going to be okay.

00:22:09.677 --> 00:22:13.837
But nobody's going to send a night flight dirigible or helicopter down to get them.

00:22:14.217 --> 00:22:18.037
And by the way, if you key into this box, there's some water and there's some,

00:22:18.137 --> 00:22:20.557
you know, military rations.

00:22:20.917 --> 00:22:23.037
And if you look really hard, you're going to find some Oreos too.

00:22:23.137 --> 00:22:24.157
That's going to make the night go better.

00:22:25.837 --> 00:22:29.397
Well, I mean, yes. Yeah. Who would disagree with that?

00:22:30.097 --> 00:22:32.657
But please don't break into the strong boxes for the Oreos. I know.

00:22:32.837 --> 00:22:34.737
That's going to be edited out, so don't worry, Mark.

00:22:35.217 --> 00:22:39.437
You don't listen to this podcast, so you're fine. Right. In fact, it's gone now. Yes.

00:22:39.977 --> 00:22:44.917
So that's interesting. So overwarning, because I think we live in a culture

00:22:44.917 --> 00:22:49.477
where we're overwarned quite a bit about things that we can rationally see.

00:22:49.597 --> 00:22:53.677
This isn't really about protecting me. And you understand why overwarning doesn't

00:22:53.677 --> 00:22:56.077
work, do you? Yeah. So there's two things.

00:22:56.537 --> 00:23:01.797
One is the law of small numbers, which is that happens to everybody else,

00:23:01.917 --> 00:23:05.977
but the odds are actually that it won't happen to me. Correct. Right?

00:23:06.117 --> 00:23:10.697
And then couple that with an optimism bias, with the belief that I'll be fine.

00:23:10.697 --> 00:23:13.257
Right. Look at my shoes. Because I'm almost always fine. Yeah.

00:23:13.417 --> 00:23:16.537
And I can do this because I've done stuff like this before, and I've always

00:23:16.537 --> 00:23:18.017
kind of gotten away with it. All the time.

00:23:18.177 --> 00:23:21.797
Like, I can go for four hours on the Stairmaster. This is no big deal. Not that big. Yeah.

00:23:23.564 --> 00:23:29.504
That's interesting to me. So is it trickery? Is the bicycle box trickery?

00:23:30.024 --> 00:23:33.844
I think, no, I think it's really, really effective. I think it's demonstrated as effective.

00:23:34.004 --> 00:23:38.484
Yeah, I know it worked. When the curtain gets pulled back, it risks being less effective.

00:23:38.644 --> 00:23:42.764
And if the goal is to maintain that effectiveness and achieve that goal of not

00:23:42.764 --> 00:23:44.884
damaging the bicycles in this case,

00:23:45.184 --> 00:23:50.864
then once the, again, the curtain is pulled back or the mask is pulled off and they see, you know,

00:23:50.964 --> 00:23:53.544
the thinking behind it and how it was supposed to influence them,

00:23:53.564 --> 00:23:58.864
They may be less likely to comply because they know that I can mishandle this

00:23:58.864 --> 00:24:02.584
a bit because it's not really TV as opposed to if somebody said,

00:24:02.664 --> 00:24:04.944
you know, this thing that you're using, these tanks, for instance,

00:24:05.744 --> 00:24:08.924
notice how they're laid out. They're laid out to make your job easier and better.

00:24:09.524 --> 00:24:14.424
And I would feel in that case like, wow, somebody put some thought into really

00:24:14.424 --> 00:24:18.444
caring about me and didn't have to manipulate me. I hate to use the word manipulate.

00:24:18.844 --> 00:24:22.204
Well, but I'm not sure the word. It's not manipulation in a bad way.

00:24:22.204 --> 00:24:23.944
It's manipulation toward people's well-being.

00:24:24.144 --> 00:24:26.644
Let me ask this question then, Ranger Rick. Oh, here comes another one.

00:24:26.844 --> 00:24:28.884
Yeah. Are safeguards permanent?

00:24:29.924 --> 00:24:35.664
Don't think so. I think it depends. That was a super like – Wimpy.

00:24:35.924 --> 00:24:40.524
Yeah. Like if a wuss answered a question – Yes. I'm going to put an X in the center box on that.

00:24:40.704 --> 00:24:44.424
Yeah. I'd like to – on a Likert scale, I'd be at right now 3.5.

00:24:44.664 --> 00:24:49.064
There you go. It's 3.5 on a Likert scale. Modified Likert scale actually because it's just 1 to 7.

00:24:49.124 --> 00:24:53.164
That's right. Well, so everything is always degrading.

00:24:53.444 --> 00:24:57.844
Right. And so if everything's always degrading, then every safeguard you put

00:24:57.844 --> 00:25:01.324
in a system over time will fail.

00:25:01.564 --> 00:25:03.024
Break. Because it'll wear out a break.

00:25:03.264 --> 00:25:08.544
Rust. It'll definitely normalize. So we'll start to actually depend on that.

00:25:08.684 --> 00:25:11.064
And at some point, it'll become a production advantage.

00:25:11.324 --> 00:25:15.184
We'll use it to actually get work done faster. Yes.

00:25:15.944 --> 00:25:18.444
So should we stop trying? No. No.

00:25:19.873 --> 00:25:23.273
Interesting. Well, I think this is a very interesting discussion.

00:25:23.793 --> 00:25:35.133
I think mostly what this is about is does mankind exercise free agency or is

00:25:35.133 --> 00:25:41.553
mankind predetermined by larger contextual pressures that exist upon us all the time?

00:25:41.933 --> 00:25:43.793
And I'm not sure I have an answer to that.

00:25:44.533 --> 00:25:49.613
That's been getting worked on for some time now. Yeah. Maybe smart people somewhere

00:25:49.613 --> 00:25:50.693
will solve this problem.

00:25:50.813 --> 00:25:54.653
But I think leaders think, especially in retrospect,

00:25:54.933 --> 00:26:01.373
especially after something happens, that the worker actually had free will and

00:26:01.373 --> 00:26:03.673
that every decision that was made

00:26:03.673 --> 00:26:08.433
was entirely a function of the worker specifically making the decision.

00:26:08.533 --> 00:26:11.513
A rational choice. A rational choice to do something stupid. Right.

00:26:12.113 --> 00:26:19.033
And I think in context, before the event happens, I actually think many things

00:26:19.033 --> 00:26:22.073
that we see as choices are not. Are not.

00:26:22.233 --> 00:26:27.273
In fact, they're oftentimes just responses to the environment in which we find ourselves.

00:26:27.473 --> 00:26:29.693
Whether that be a grocery store

00:26:29.693 --> 00:26:34.113
or a box of bicycles. I guess there's only one bicycle in the box. Oh.

00:26:35.133 --> 00:26:40.553
Or going down a trail with a Diet Pepsi and a Chihuahua. In the Grand Canyon. Yeah.

00:26:41.273 --> 00:26:46.353
So I think we'll work for a long time. I think so. I think we have almost permanent employment.

00:26:48.173 --> 00:26:51.413
The fact that it's a moral question or a non-moral question,

00:26:51.573 --> 00:26:53.153
that's very interesting to me.

00:26:53.553 --> 00:26:56.793
And I think that's part of what we want to change is we want to help people

00:26:56.793 --> 00:27:01.513
understand that when they put a video up of a guy who knocks a loader into a

00:27:01.513 --> 00:27:06.173
ditch or something, whatever, I don't know, there's a ton of them always,

00:27:06.913 --> 00:27:11.053
that actually what that is doing is standing in moral judgment in retrospect

00:27:11.053 --> 00:27:19.113
of a worker who probably at the time was simply trying to move the digger across the ditch.

00:27:19.513 --> 00:27:22.853
Well, you know, the one that really got me going a while back,

00:27:22.873 --> 00:27:28.713
I try to restrain myself, but there was a video of a really nice Airbus and

00:27:28.713 --> 00:27:33.473
there was a tug below it and the tug caught on fire and was pretty quickly engulfed.

00:27:33.613 --> 00:27:37.273
And you know, at every airport, there are those fire extinguishers with the big wheels.

00:27:37.433 --> 00:27:40.353
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the whole model for using those fire extinguishers is

00:27:40.353 --> 00:27:44.493
if a fire breaks out, you hit the panic button and get the response going from

00:27:44.493 --> 00:27:48.393
the on-field fire department. This was a big international airport setting,

00:27:48.393 --> 00:27:51.213
so they certainly have a fire department, but there is a response time.

00:27:51.333 --> 00:27:55.373
And the whole model for using a fire extinguisher is to try,

00:27:55.393 --> 00:27:58.833
if it's possible, to limit the.

00:27:59.700 --> 00:28:02.400
You know, the progression of that fire until they get there with the big guns

00:28:02.400 --> 00:28:05.740
or the big trucks in this case, right? Right. So here's a video of guys that

00:28:05.740 --> 00:28:07.540
are operating the tug. The thing bursts into flames.

00:28:07.900 --> 00:28:11.460
The fire extinguisher is right there. They grab it, you know,

00:28:11.540 --> 00:28:13.000
and it's windy and stuff like that.

00:28:13.060 --> 00:28:16.360
And it's a fuel fire and they're hitting it with the fuel, but they're not in

00:28:16.360 --> 00:28:18.720
PPE because that's not how fire extinguishers work.

00:28:18.820 --> 00:28:22.100
They don't come with, you know, fire retardant clothing and SCBA.

00:28:22.460 --> 00:28:26.420
It's a fire extinguisher. And so they exhaust the fire extinguisher as they're

00:28:26.420 --> 00:28:29.320
retreating and then they run away from the thing.

00:28:29.700 --> 00:28:34.340
And then the comments from that post was the first one would say,

00:28:34.420 --> 00:28:40.480
this is a clear violation of ACIO or ICAO, you know, yeah, section 41,

00:28:40.600 --> 00:28:41.920
honestly, down to the paragraph.

00:28:42.040 --> 00:28:47.540
And there was two sentences of citations of the violations that were taking

00:28:47.540 --> 00:28:52.940
place and the fact that they weren't in PPE and the fire responders didn't respond in a timely manner.

00:28:53.080 --> 00:28:56.500
And again, this whole video clip is about 18 seconds long, so I've never seen

00:28:56.500 --> 00:29:01.060
a fire department that can get to a fire in 18 seconds. But with the benefit

00:29:01.060 --> 00:29:07.160
of retrospect and this comfort share bias that we have, I don't want to call it a bias.

00:29:07.280 --> 00:29:10.920
I just think it's kind of cruel to sit there and judge those people and list

00:29:10.920 --> 00:29:13.100
like here are the idealized procedures

00:29:13.100 --> 00:29:16.320
that were not followed to my satisfaction in this case was crazy.

00:29:16.460 --> 00:29:20.740
And that's why I couldn't restrain myself when I tweeted back or I didn't tweet

00:29:20.740 --> 00:29:23.960
whatever it's called. I posted back and I said, well, maybe the fire department

00:29:23.960 --> 00:29:30.040
was delayed because they were watching a PowerPoint presentation on ICAO chapter 41-61.

00:29:30.300 --> 00:29:34.020
And then I hit sin and it felt terrible afterwards. I didn't mean to be rude to the guy.

00:29:34.140 --> 00:29:37.060
I said, man, I want your job where you just get to sit there and criticize people

00:29:37.060 --> 00:29:38.460
who are actually trying to put the fire out.

00:29:39.580 --> 00:29:43.120
That's good. But it just bugs me because I don't think it makes us any better.

00:29:43.120 --> 00:29:48.620
When you see people out there struggling in unexpected circumstances or strange

00:29:48.620 --> 00:29:51.060
combinations of really common circumstances –.

00:29:52.318 --> 00:29:57.458
You can see that they're actually trying to make sense of what's going on and do the right thing.

00:29:57.598 --> 00:30:00.618
And when it goes wrong, it's really easy to sit there and say like,

00:30:00.698 --> 00:30:03.918
well, obviously they should have chosen B instead of A. So let's bring everybody

00:30:03.918 --> 00:30:09.398
in for A over B training and fire these guys or, you know, suspend them or something like that.

00:30:09.878 --> 00:30:12.398
When in fact, that's just the way the world works every day.

00:30:12.398 --> 00:30:14.158
We're constantly having to make decisions.

00:30:14.298 --> 00:30:16.818
And I think that, you know, honest workers, and I think most workers are honest,

00:30:16.998 --> 00:30:21.178
are trying to think the next step I take is probably the absolute best thing

00:30:21.178 --> 00:30:24.698
to do in this complex situation that I'm struggling with. And they don't know

00:30:24.698 --> 00:30:25.478
that it's going to be bad.

00:30:25.598 --> 00:30:29.078
And we don't know it's going to be bad until it doesn't work.

00:30:29.298 --> 00:30:35.078
Had that fire extinguisher put out that fire, those guys would have been heroes. Nobody got hurt.

00:30:35.398 --> 00:30:37.418
I mean, plane got burnt up pretty good.

00:30:37.778 --> 00:30:42.758
But, you know, they did exactly what the system was designed to do.

00:30:43.118 --> 00:30:46.078
And that, my friend, the best definition of

00:30:46.078 --> 00:30:48.938
local rationale I've ever heard is a pretty good place

00:30:48.938 --> 00:30:51.698
to stop this podcast thank you mark well thanks todd

00:30:51.698 --> 00:30:57.978
you're welcome talk to you soon see ya and that

00:30:57.978 --> 00:31:01.738
is the podcast for today what do you think would you change your life do your

00:31:01.738 --> 00:31:05.638
life feel changed yeah turn turn the sound up a little it was fun that was a

00:31:05.638 --> 00:31:08.918
great conversation it's always fun to spend time with mark he's great give him

00:31:08.918 --> 00:31:13.618
a call if you've not worked with him you should he is a fun guy fun fun fun

00:31:13.618 --> 00:31:16.098
fun fun all right so that's the podcast talk to you.

00:31:16.578 --> 00:31:19.698
Wednesday, and then maybe again Saturday, and then Wednesday, and then Saturday.

00:31:19.958 --> 00:31:22.798
We do this kind of a lot, don't we? If you're new to the podcast,

00:31:22.958 --> 00:31:25.618
thanks for listening. If you've listened for a while, tell your friends.

00:31:26.138 --> 00:31:28.918
Tell your friends and subscribe. That makes a big difference.

00:31:29.298 --> 00:31:32.738
Until then, learn something new every single day. Have as much fun as you possibly

00:31:32.738 --> 00:31:33.858
can, and for goodness sakes.

00:31:34.480 --> 00:31:44.845
Music.