PSPof 531 - Marc Yeston Redux - Navigating Safety: The Fine Line Between Manipulation and Design

WEBVTT 00:00:00.017 --> 00:00:04.937 So, yeah, this podcast is brought to you by Milo's Sweet Tea. Milo's Sweet Tea. 00:00:05.417 --> 00:00:08.397 Made in Bessemer. Is that where it says Bessemer, Alabama?

00:00:08.637 --> 00:00:12.017 I can't read it on my glasses on, but it says no calorie, but it sure doesn't 00:00:12.017 --> 00:00:15.357 taste like no calorie. It's delish, isn't it? It's perfectly delicious. 00:00:15.697 --> 00:00:17.677 It's really good.

Oh, shit. Oh. 00:00:17.200 --> 00:00:29.840 Music. 00:00:29.177 --> 00:00:32.797 Hi everybody welcome to the pre-accident podcast i am your loving host todd 00:00:32.797 --> 00:00:39.137 conklin how are you today are you good it is september the month of the bluegrass 00:00:39.137 --> 00:00:42.217 festival i know i talk about it a lot but it's because i rented a golf cart 00:00:42.217 --> 00:00:44.477 and you know any place where i can drive a golf cart.

00:00:44.717 --> 00:00:47.357 I'm in my happy place. That is my happy space. 00:00:47.617 --> 00:00:53.697 I'm happiest when I'm golf carting-ish, driving, whatever I'm trying to say. 00:00:53.917 --> 00:00:56.117 Hey, anyway, I hope the gear's going good.

Can you believe it? 00:00:56.177 --> 00:00:58.377 It's the ninth month. What happened? 00:00:59.217 --> 00:01:03.697 You turn around and, zam, it's gone.

I'm just coming back off gigantic travel, 00:01:04.197 --> 00:01:06.257 like Herculean travel, crazy travel. 00:01:06.357 --> 00:01:10.377 And it was crazy because a better person would have scheduled this differently, 00:01:10.377 --> 00:01:12.677 but I was in Europe and then I had to go to Asia. 00:01:12.957 --> 00:01:16.897 And I had it all worked out perfectly that I could have like three days at home in between there. 00:01:17.297 --> 00:01:21.317 Except that coming back from Europe, my plane got messed up in London and I 00:01:21.317 --> 00:01:25.437 got trapped 20 minutes at a time.

They wouldn't just tell me it was delayed. 00:01:25.857 --> 00:01:29.837 It was, we'll be going in 20 minutes or in 20 minutes, this thing will fly in 00:01:29.837 --> 00:01:31.877 20 minutes, 20 minutes at a time. 00:01:31.997 --> 00:01:34.337 We were like 10 hours late. Thank you, United.

00:01:34.737 --> 00:01:38.717 And by the time I got in, there wasn't enough time to go home for the weekend. 00:01:38.977 --> 00:01:41.977 So then I had to go directly to Asia and I had no clean clothes. 00:01:42.537 --> 00:01:45.737 Luckily, where I stay, there's lots of clean clothes. 00:01:45.857 --> 00:01:49.717 You'll hear more about this Asia trip, I'm sure, because I recorded a great 00:01:49.717 --> 00:01:53.297 podcast with some people in Asia because I was there and we were working together.

00:01:53.457 --> 00:01:54.517 And so I thought, why not? 00:01:54.877 --> 00:01:56.777 I can't think of a reason why not. 00:01:57.777 --> 00:02:01.477 And other than that, you know, I'm suffering a bit of burnout. 00:02:01.737 --> 00:02:05.097 I'll just be honest with you.

I think I'm burning the candle at both ends and 00:02:05.097 --> 00:02:08.857 And it's burning towards the middle. And I can feel it. 00:02:09.237 --> 00:02:11.917 Today it hit especially hard. Darn it.

00:02:12.217 --> 00:02:17.357 I'm sure it's a combination of being jet lagged and just exhausted and not feeling 00:02:17.357 --> 00:02:20.517 good. And you know how it goes. 00:02:20.917 --> 00:02:25.517 All these things, you also suffer. But it's exciting because the world is...

00:02:26.226 --> 00:02:32.286 It's, man, companies that are doing the safety difference stuff are really getting better. 00:02:32.486 --> 00:02:35.186 I mean, they're starting to see improvement, and there's all these testimonials, 00:02:35.246 --> 00:02:38.346 and there's all these people out there in the world excited. 00:02:38.826 --> 00:02:43.126 So that part's good. I mean, you know, it's all pretty good, 00:02:43.226 --> 00:02:47.526 he says, which seems intellectually lazy, but that's kind of where I am anyway.

00:02:47.946 --> 00:02:51.226 I feel intellectually lazy. It's the September part of it. 00:02:51.646 --> 00:02:54.906 School's starting, at least in the United States, for those of us who hang out there. 00:02:54.906 --> 00:02:57.766 And so we're kind of back into the groove it's just 00:02:57.766 --> 00:03:00.566 a matter of time till weather hits us i just heard 00:03:00.566 --> 00:03:04.506 this weekend that it's supposed to be a very snowy but warm winter at least 00:03:04.506 --> 00:03:08.466 for us i don't know what that means actually lots of melting i guess so that 00:03:08.466 --> 00:03:12.506 should be fun as well and we've got a podcast for you because this is a podcast 00:03:12.506 --> 00:03:17.826 and that's why we're here and if you could tell from the introduction this podcast 00:03:17.826 --> 00:03:20.226 by the way isn't really sponsored by milo's tea tea.

00:03:20.826 --> 00:03:27.366 It's the, the, those great people at Alabama power in Tuscaloosa sent me a case 00:03:27.366 --> 00:03:30.086 of Milo's tea and I liked it. 00:03:30.146 --> 00:03:34.226 And I said, I liked it. I must've said I liked it loud enough that somebody heard me say I like it. 00:03:34.366 --> 00:03:37.086 And so the payoff was to give me some tea.

00:03:37.446 --> 00:03:41.566 So we were drinking Milo's tea when we were recording this. And that's why we 00:03:41.566 --> 00:03:42.606 did the fake sponsorship. 00:03:42.806 --> 00:03:45.846 But if I had to sponsor Milo's tea would be one I'd sponsor. 00:03:46.006 --> 00:03:48.746 It's really good.

It's delicious tea. There's no question about it. 00:03:49.366 --> 00:03:53.166 Delicious is the word I would use. But I was talking with Mark Yeston.

00:03:53.646 --> 00:03:58.106 And this podcast episode is an interesting one, because this has been kind of 00:03:58.106 --> 00:04:00.026 an ongoing discussion around the five principles. 00:04:00.206 --> 00:04:04.126 So my premise is, is that we're getting kind of far away from the principles 00:04:04.126 --> 00:04:08.606 that we've initially, not we, but that were initially established to sort of 00:04:08.606 --> 00:04:12.446 look at human and organizational performance, and have been sort of the fathers 00:04:12.446 --> 00:04:14.406 and mothers of the new view. 00:04:14.706 --> 00:04:17.946 And so I've talked about the principles. In fact, I talked about them this year, 00:04:18.026 --> 00:04:19.666 and I'm working on a book on the five principles.

00:04:19.966 --> 00:04:23.646 One of those principles is the notion that context drives behavior, 00:04:24.006 --> 00:04:26.986 that behavior is a function of the organization's context. 00:04:27.666 --> 00:04:32.306 And Mark Yeston, whom you all know from his incredible experience with the Park 00:04:32.306 --> 00:04:34.366 Service and the work he does, 00:04:34.846 --> 00:04:39.886 all over the world with pre-job, post-job, he's really good with adaptive workers 00:04:39.886 --> 00:04:43.286 who work in high-risk areas, like he's great with linemen, 00:04:44.006 --> 00:04:47.786 firemen, helicopter rescue people, that kind of stuff, emergency medicine, 00:04:48.366 --> 00:04:51.326 wilderness doctors, knolls. He does all that kind of stuff, right? 00:04:51.586 --> 00:04:59.726 So he was talking to me about this idea that, in fact, if context truly drives 00:04:59.726 --> 00:05:02.646 behavior, then isn't that manipulation?

00:05:03.206 --> 00:05:07.766 And he was saying it kind of put air quotes around manipulation as if it were 00:05:07.766 --> 00:05:13.046 sort of a morally bankrupt way to manage behavior. 00:05:13.849 --> 00:05:17.809 And so that's kind of what this podcast talks about, because that's a really 00:05:17.809 --> 00:05:21.009 good question. I mean, is advertising manipulation? 00:05:21.409 --> 00:05:25.109 Well, the quick answer is yes, it is.

Is the way they design grocery stores 00:05:25.109 --> 00:05:27.129 manipulation? Yeah, that's manipulation. 00:05:27.489 --> 00:05:31.929 Is the way you have to shop on Amazon if you do online shopping manipulation? 00:05:32.629 --> 00:05:37.069 People who bought this also bought this, right?

All those things are there to 00:05:37.069 --> 00:05:42.869 provide context, and that context then provides behavioral stimuli. 00:05:42.869 --> 00:05:45.549 It gives you a reason to do what you do. 00:05:45.769 --> 00:05:48.809 And that really is that third principle that we talk about a lot. 00:05:49.049 --> 00:05:53.769 And whether it's manipulation, bad word, or manipulation, good word, 00:05:54.049 --> 00:05:55.829 maybe that's something we should talk about.

00:05:56.009 --> 00:06:00.249 And so that is exactly what we did. And so that is this podcast. 00:06:00.509 --> 00:06:04.129 So if I'll shut up, you could actually hear this podcast, and that would be 00:06:04.129 --> 00:06:08.529 pretty cool too. So sit back and relax, open up your jar of Milo's tea, 00:06:08.769 --> 00:06:14.789 and listen to Mark and I discuss this very idea out loud in public on this very topic.

00:06:15.920 --> 00:06:21.520 Music. 00:06:21.609 --> 00:06:25.289 Okay, so how's it going? What are you up to now? 00:06:25.629 --> 00:06:29.189 Good, Todd.

It's nice to see you. It's nice to be back at the podcast studios. 00:06:29.189 --> 00:06:33.209 I love what you did with the parking lot, adding some additional spaces for 00:06:33.209 --> 00:06:34.209 all the coming and going. 00:06:34.389 --> 00:06:38.089 Although that guy that collects the fees is kind of cranky.

Does it feel good to be a part of it? 00:06:38.329 --> 00:06:41.449 Oh, it's huge, yeah. You're happening in the podcast land? 00:06:42.169 --> 00:06:45.049 Yeah, I love it.

It's better than like birthdays at Denny's. 00:06:45.589 --> 00:06:48.889 Birthdays at Denny's. So what you're doing with the new view stuff? 00:06:48.989 --> 00:06:50.869 What you're doing with safety stuff?

What are you thinking about now? 00:06:51.449 --> 00:06:58.209 I think about this idea of talking to people about how systems influence what workers do. 00:06:58.609 --> 00:07:04.409 So that seems to be a big deal. That's one of the big five principles that context drives behavior.

00:07:05.049 --> 00:07:09.269 And you asked about that earlier this morning. What is it about that that bugs you? 00:07:10.068 --> 00:07:12.748 Well, nothing bugs me about it. Oh, sorry.

I didn't mean to – I didn't want 00:07:12.748 --> 00:07:16.448 to put words in your mouth. Yeah. Let me ask it this way. Why on earth would 00:07:16.448 --> 00:07:17.288 you ask me that question?

00:07:17.828 --> 00:07:20.848 Because I'm just curious about the examples that you use when you're talking 00:07:20.848 --> 00:07:22.008 to people about this stuff. 00:07:22.088 --> 00:07:25.988 And then you brought up a couple of great examples, actually several really 00:07:25.988 --> 00:07:30.148 good examples that I think make sense. And then we kind of like tore that apart a little bit. 00:07:30.308 --> 00:07:35.548 You're starting off talking about grocery stores and how the way the grocery 00:07:35.548 --> 00:07:38.148 store is set up.

You know, I mean, people frequently, if they're going on an 00:07:38.148 --> 00:07:41.768 unplanned visit to the grocery store, just going to pick up some milk, a quick in and out. 00:07:41.888 --> 00:07:45.448 And of course, the milk is strategically located as far away from the front 00:07:45.448 --> 00:07:48.008 door as possible. So you have to go buy all the cool stuff. 00:07:48.148 --> 00:07:50.348 And, you know, on your way back out with your milk, you think like, 00:07:50.408 --> 00:07:52.768 hey, here's the Hershey's syrup.

Need some of that, too. 00:07:53.748 --> 00:07:56.568 And I think that people there's a transparency to it. 00:07:56.648 --> 00:08:00.308 I mean, we know that we're kind of, for lack of a better word, being manipulated. 00:08:00.308 --> 00:08:04.768 We know that we're being steered a little bit in our behavior and we kind of 00:08:04.768 --> 00:08:10.168 accept it.

And then you talked about that fantastic anecdote of the bicycles 00:08:10.168 --> 00:08:12.948 getting damaged in shipping. You want to explain that real quick? 00:08:14.008 --> 00:08:17.668 That's the one where the guy was having bicycles. He was shipping them from 00:08:17.668 --> 00:08:19.008 Europe to the United States.

00:08:19.328 --> 00:08:22.668 They weren't getting damaged in shipping. They were getting damaged between 00:08:22.668 --> 00:08:27.308 the time they took them out of the transportainers and put them on like the FedEx truck. Right. 00:08:27.688 --> 00:08:32.088 And so they changed – they worried about it a long time and they thought about 00:08:32.088 --> 00:08:37.748 it and, oh, what should we do?

a bigger box, stronger box, put giant fragile signs on it. 00:08:37.848 --> 00:08:41.708 And they ended up just printing a 70-inch big screen TV on the box. 00:08:42.428 --> 00:08:47.728 Right. So the box looks like it has a 70-inch TV in it, but in reality, it has a bicycle.

00:08:48.288 --> 00:08:53.888 So long story short. Super effective. Yeah, it totally worked because the stevedores, 00:08:54.068 --> 00:09:01.268 the guys who unload the transportainers, care more about 70-inch TVs than they do care about bicycles. 00:09:01.548 --> 00:09:05.728 Right.

A bicycle is much less fragile than a TV, and so you might be more inclined 00:09:05.728 --> 00:09:08.288 to think, oh, I can toss this and stack them a little bit higher, 00:09:08.348 --> 00:09:10.288 but I don't want to mess up somebody's TV. Totally makes sense. 00:09:10.408 --> 00:09:16.868 But then my thought about that was if I'm the worker and I'm tossing those or 00:09:16.868 --> 00:09:20.828 being very careful with those boxes that look like they're holding someone's 00:09:20.828 --> 00:09:25.228 expensive flat screen TV and one breaks open and one's always going to break 00:09:25.228 --> 00:09:27.908 open eventually and I find a bicycle inside, 00:09:27.908 --> 00:09:29.968 I'm going to feel a little bit misled. 00:09:30.448 --> 00:09:36.248 Right.

And that's the part I find interesting because you see the grocery store 00:09:36.248 --> 00:09:38.528 putting the milk in the back, 00:09:38.788 --> 00:09:45.268 right, or the expensive items at eye level or printing a TV on a bicycle box. 00:09:45.268 --> 00:09:46.528 You see that as trickery. 00:09:47.544 --> 00:09:51.224 I see it as non-transparent. See, if I go into the grocery store, 00:09:51.284 --> 00:09:55.544 I'm joining in on the – Is that how a rich guy says trickery?

Well, I wouldn't know. 00:09:56.584 --> 00:10:01.384 Can I say chicanery? Chicanery is even better. Yes, it's chicanery.

00:10:02.784 --> 00:10:07.124 But no, I think like when you can understand pretty easily that the grocery 00:10:07.124 --> 00:10:10.984 store is there trying to manipulate you and sell you and there's all kinds of cool stuff there. 00:10:10.984 --> 00:10:14.984 But it's like – so let's say instead of labeling that box with a TV, 00:10:15.244 --> 00:10:18.904 you put high explosives. If you drop this, it's going to vaporize you, 00:10:18.924 --> 00:10:21.344 and then you found out there was a bicycle in the bag. You would think like, 00:10:21.464 --> 00:10:23.644 hey, man, don't they give me some credit for this kind of thing?

00:10:24.204 --> 00:10:28.664 Well, kind of. I mean, well, I actually think the high explosives would be – 00:10:28.664 --> 00:10:32.804 you're introducing a lot of confounding variables into the argument. 00:10:33.104 --> 00:10:37.624 No, I'm sorry. It's a Saturday, and we just ate some delicious Mexican food.

And Milo's Sweet Tea. 00:10:37.824 --> 00:10:42.904 And Milo's Sweet Tea brought to you by Milo's Sweet Tea. I love sweet tea. Thanks, Delane.

00:10:43.444 --> 00:10:47.904 So what's interesting to me is – and I really am kind of fixated on it – is 00:10:47.904 --> 00:10:54.284 that manipulation to you, you see as less than transparent. 00:10:54.584 --> 00:10:59.024 No, I'm talking about – forgetting transparency. I'm thinking about durability. 00:10:59.864 --> 00:11:04.664 And so the minute that first box cracks open and the person loading the boxes 00:11:04.664 --> 00:11:10.564 sees that they were being influenced by a false message, the whole thing makes sense to them.

00:11:10.644 --> 00:11:14.184 But then they will know from that period forward that a box that looks like 00:11:14.184 --> 00:11:16.064 this that says TV is actually a bicycle. 00:11:16.224 --> 00:11:19.124 I don't have to be as careful with it. You know, that ruse didn't work on me. 00:11:19.564 --> 00:11:24.924 Now, take that to the other example we talked about with the additive tanks.

00:11:25.504 --> 00:11:30.204 Right. Now, I love that. That's elegant. And so describe that for the folks really quick.

00:11:30.524 --> 00:11:34.084 Okay. So imagine four long, skinny, pencil-shaped tanks. 00:11:34.264 --> 00:11:37.184 They're long and skinny tanks, and they're maybe – let's say they're 30 feet 00:11:37.184 --> 00:11:41.324 high, and they're in a row, and they're all in a line. and they're about a meter apart.

00:11:42.264 --> 00:11:45.824 That's about three feet. That's if you're left-handed. Or $1.80 Canadian. 00:11:46.004 --> 00:11:47.584 That's right.

There you go. Go ahead and calculate. 00:11:48.464 --> 00:11:53.544 So I did an investigation where a person had to climb up a ladder, 00:11:54.164 --> 00:11:56.144 go to the top of the tank, check something, 00:11:56.824 --> 00:12:00.704 climb back down the ladder, go to the tank next to it, climb up that tank, 00:12:00.864 --> 00:12:03.964 go to the top and check it, climb down that ladder, go to the one next to it. 00:12:04.004 --> 00:12:05.184 There's five tanks in a row.

00:12:05.344 --> 00:12:08.884 And he had to check all five of those tanks, which means he has to climb up 00:12:08.884 --> 00:12:13.044 five ladders and down five ladders unless he stays on the tank, 00:12:13.144 --> 00:12:16.464 which would be four and a half ladders. But let's say he's coming down, so five ladders. 00:12:17.468 --> 00:12:21.888 But amazingly enough, what was happening, they're a meter apart, 00:12:22.128 --> 00:12:24.548 is the guy was jumping from tank to tank. 00:12:24.728 --> 00:12:28.948 Or even just like going from guardrail to guardrail, like having two or three 00:12:28.948 --> 00:12:31.508 points of contact and making that leap, which works every time until.

00:12:31.728 --> 00:12:34.408 Right. It didn't. Right. And, you know, so let's say you can have three points 00:12:34.408 --> 00:12:35.548 of contact the entire time.

00:12:35.728 --> 00:12:38.708 And let's say he's done it a long time and it's normally pretty safe. 00:12:38.828 --> 00:12:44.228 I mean, clearly, if it's safe like that, it's incredibly efficient because workers 00:12:44.228 --> 00:12:48.308 really count on efficiency. because if I don't have to make 10 steps today, 00:12:48.308 --> 00:12:50.228 I'm actually 10 steps ahead of tomorrow. 00:12:50.488 --> 00:12:55.868 So workers being like water are going to look for the path of least resistance.

People. 00:12:56.148 --> 00:12:59.608 Right, right. Okay, people being like water are going to look for the path of 00:12:59.608 --> 00:13:01.588 least resistance. And so the guy jumped between them.

00:13:02.228 --> 00:13:04.608 So the question is, is he an idiot? 00:13:05.288 --> 00:13:10.968 Is he next on the list of LinkedIn videos that people show, which drive me bananas? 00:13:11.208 --> 00:13:15.188 Me too. All these like, look how dumb this guy is.

They made scaffolding out 00:13:15.188 --> 00:13:17.968 of bamboo in India. Don't be this guy. That's right. 00:13:18.388 --> 00:13:22.528 Or, in fact, can we look at that and say the system has some influence on that?

00:13:22.768 --> 00:13:27.128 Because if the tanks were farther away apart, so let's say the tanks were 10 feet apart. 00:13:27.248 --> 00:13:31.628 Then you wouldn't consider jumping between them. Because unless you're Spider-Man, you can't do it. 00:13:32.568 --> 00:13:36.468 But last week I was at a facility and they had the same thing, 00:13:36.648 --> 00:13:39.688 five pencil-thin tanks, 30 feet high.

00:13:40.188 --> 00:13:45.768 But on one end, they had this beautiful, very gracious and casual staircase 00:13:45.768 --> 00:13:50.268 that led up with landings and a nice pitch, seven-inch rise. 00:13:50.428 --> 00:13:51.208 It was a great staircase. 00:13:51.608 --> 00:13:56.048 When you got on top of tank one, lo and behold, there was a catwalk to tank 00:13:56.048 --> 00:13:59.288 two and to tank three and to tank four and to tank five. 00:13:59.388 --> 00:14:04.008 And at tank five, there was an emergency egress, a climbing ladder with a cage 00:14:04.008 --> 00:14:06.348 and a parapet crossing.

But you wouldn't be trapped. 00:14:06.448 --> 00:14:08.668 So you wouldn't be trapped on one side if the tanks blew up. 00:14:08.668 --> 00:14:13.168 And I will tell you that they will never have a person jump from tank to tank. 00:14:13.348 --> 00:14:20.228 Now, they built a system that manipulates the worker's behavior towards using the catwalk.

00:14:20.448 --> 00:14:24.368 Is that trickery? Okay, so I don't think it's trickery. Okay, is that chicanery? 00:14:24.668 --> 00:14:28.908 Chicanery.

No, not even. What I think is it's fantastic and thoughtful design 00:14:28.908 --> 00:14:34.008 in the fact that the worker or the person looking at it would never be aware 00:14:34.008 --> 00:14:37.648 unless they thought about it or someone told them why it was designed that way. 00:14:37.648 --> 00:14:42.148 But once they discovered that they were using it in the way that it was designed 00:14:42.148 --> 00:14:46.768 and it was designed with that safety in mind to not – it wouldn't even occur 00:14:46.768 --> 00:14:50.448 to a worker to jump among tanks because that would actually mean more work. 00:14:51.068 --> 00:14:55.388 Then if they saw what the design was, if it was explained to them or they just 00:14:55.388 --> 00:14:58.708 realized it over time or compared it to the initial tanks you talked about with 00:14:58.708 --> 00:15:02.808 the individual ladders, they would appreciate it.

They would think like –. 00:15:03.533 --> 00:15:05.573 Time was taken and design was 00:15:05.573 --> 00:15:09.773 thought to make this as safe and easy and efficient as possible for me. 00:15:10.073 --> 00:15:13.253 And of course, also for the company. And that would leave a better taste in 00:15:13.253 --> 00:15:16.833 my mouth than the box cracking open and saying, hey, it's a bicycle, 00:15:16.973 --> 00:15:20.153 not a TV, even though it works.

And yet I would suggest it's the same thing. 00:15:20.333 --> 00:15:23.513 And so if you look at principle three, context drives behavior. 00:15:24.353 --> 00:15:28.733 The sort of the metric I would use, the definition I would use for that is we 00:15:28.733 --> 00:15:34.193 should make it easy for the worker to do it safely and hard for the worker to do it dangerously. Yes.

00:15:34.593 --> 00:15:39.473 Okay. So if we do that, right, then we're actually building towards the collective 00:15:39.473 --> 00:15:41.453 goal of both the worker and the organization. 00:15:41.813 --> 00:15:44.673 But in fact, the organization is getting exactly what it wants. 00:15:44.733 --> 00:15:50.653 It's getting safe and reliable performance without injury and all five tanks get checked.

Right. 00:15:51.093 --> 00:15:54.893 So is that bad? No, I don't think it's bad. But grocery stores are bad.

00:15:54.893 --> 00:15:56.433 No, I don't think grocery stores are bad. 00:15:56.553 --> 00:15:59.893 I think they're varying levels of perception. 00:16:00.133 --> 00:16:03.673 So let me ask this. Is advertising immoral?

No, I don't think so. 00:16:04.451 --> 00:16:07.631 Especially not the Geico ads. I love that lizard, all the stuff they're doing. 00:16:07.651 --> 00:16:11.791 Everyone loves that lizard.

Yeah. But the Geico ad, the one to watch is Flo. 00:16:12.311 --> 00:16:15.471 Yeah, yeah. She's cool, too.

I think Flo is very interesting. 00:16:15.611 --> 00:16:21.631 But this notion that somehow workers exercise free agency and that every accident, 00:16:21.971 --> 00:16:26.471 LinkedIn, here it comes, is a function of the worker being stupid is, 00:16:26.671 --> 00:16:31.471 in my opinion, and I could be wrong, I actually do think that's immoral. 00:16:31.671 --> 00:16:35.551 I think that's malpractice. I think if you look at the worker and say the worker 00:16:35.551 --> 00:16:39.991 had a choice and the worker chose to do it in a dangerous way, 00:16:40.211 --> 00:16:43.791 therefore the worker got injured and somehow you're implying that the worker 00:16:43.791 --> 00:16:45.411 then therefore deserves to get injured.

00:16:46.031 --> 00:16:47.791 I don't know. I have a pretty hard time with that. 00:16:48.851 --> 00:16:53.791 So what do we do with it? I just like to work in a place that I can – once I 00:16:53.791 --> 00:16:55.851 see the design and I see the thought behind it, 00:16:55.951 --> 00:17:00.851 I realize that it's the way I probably would have done it if I had the budget 00:17:00.851 --> 00:17:04.491 and I had the engineering control over doing it.

Let me ask this question. Yeah. 00:17:04.731 --> 00:17:10.351 Your entire career, you worked with guests who interfaced with national parks. We call them visitors.

00:17:10.551 --> 00:17:13.691 I'm sorry, visitors who interfaced with national parks. 00:17:14.151 --> 00:17:19.391 How did you manage their behavior to keep them from stepping on, 00:17:19.851 --> 00:17:25.631 I don't know, exotic lichen that only lives in one place or maybe turtles or, 00:17:25.671 --> 00:17:27.311 I don't know, keep them on the trail? 00:17:27.411 --> 00:17:31.911 What did you do? It's a balancing act because we would try to give people information 00:17:31.911 --> 00:17:38.751 that they could relate to without overdoing it and in doing so having them disregard it, 00:17:38.791 --> 00:17:42.791 thinking they were just being handheld and over-parented when they were visiting 00:17:42.791 --> 00:17:44.791 the parks, which is a problem.

00:17:45.051 --> 00:17:48.571 Like you stay in lots of hotels in the great state of California, right? 00:17:48.931 --> 00:17:54.031 Yes. And pretty decent hotels too, I'm sure. If you count Camp Electric as a decent hotel.

00:17:54.251 --> 00:17:58.371 And I do. And every one of those hotels you walk into has a nice-looking placard 00:17:58.371 --> 00:18:02.771 on each floor that says, there are chemicals in this hotel known by the state 00:18:02.771 --> 00:18:04.891 of California to cause birth defects and cancer. 00:18:05.471 --> 00:18:09.011 And there's absolutely nothing for you to do about that. Right.

Now, you do see those. 00:18:09.351 --> 00:18:12.611 They're everywhere, by law. When you get on an airplane, same thing. 00:18:12.831 --> 00:18:15.451 And so people are bombarded by all of these messages that say, 00:18:15.511 --> 00:18:17.851 you know, the hazards are real, the hazards are real.

It's very, very dangerous. 00:18:18.011 --> 00:18:22.331 And then they know in their heart, well, a lot of this is not completely true, 00:18:22.331 --> 00:18:26.871 Or a lot of this is, you know, to protect for some liability or meet some sort of like, you know, 00:18:27.291 --> 00:18:30.311 legislative or regulatory concern and doesn't truly apply to me or I'm willing 00:18:30.311 --> 00:18:33.491 to stay in this hotel and probably not going to get a birth defect because, 00:18:33.591 --> 00:18:34.451 you know, I'm already born. 00:18:35.851 --> 00:18:38.391 Yeah. Okay.

That is helpful. Yeah. 00:18:39.632 --> 00:18:44.792 And so when you tell people, like, honestly, don't pet the bison, you know. 00:18:45.052 --> 00:18:51.352 Yeah, that guy got, he got, like, he got 18 days in jail or something, 20 days in jail?

00:18:51.472 --> 00:18:55.772 Yeah, some jail time and some mandatory drug and alcohol treatment and a ban 00:18:55.772 --> 00:18:59.172 from the parks for five years and all that kind of stuff. So he was drunk? 00:18:59.572 --> 00:19:02.532 He was, apparently. I mean, I guess it's been adjudicated now, 00:19:02.612 --> 00:19:05.312 but, yeah, that's what I understand from popular media reports.

00:19:05.312 --> 00:19:08.712 Speaking entirely as someone who has quite a history with Buffalo, 00:19:08.952 --> 00:19:13.232 and I don't know if you know this, podcast listeners, but I have quite a history 00:19:13.232 --> 00:19:15.752 with Buffalo. Someday I'll tell you the whole story. 00:19:16.552 --> 00:19:21.852 He was kind of a brave dude. Yeah, or very drunk.

Yeah, or very drunk. 00:19:22.112 --> 00:19:25.172 And there's a fine line between very brave and very drunk. 00:19:25.172 --> 00:19:28.172 But if we're warning people in their hotel rooms, like, don't use this iron 00:19:28.172 --> 00:19:30.512 to get the wrinkles out of the clothing that you're wearing, 00:19:30.672 --> 00:19:33.152 and then we tell them don't go pet the bison, 00:19:33.672 --> 00:19:38.532 then they think maybe we're being overprotective or don't swim in the hot springs. 00:19:38.772 --> 00:19:40.432 So how do you find that balance?

00:19:41.172 --> 00:19:45.032 You can try to be as transparent as possible. And you try to tell people, 00:19:45.332 --> 00:19:49.152 you know, you try not to overwarn. Well, they went through this a bunch at Grand 00:19:49.152 --> 00:19:52.732 Canyon back in the 90s when there was a spate of heat fatalities, 00:19:52.832 --> 00:19:54.272 people just like dehydrating. 00:19:55.012 --> 00:19:59.192 They tried all kinds of approaches and they tried a heavy handed approach, 00:19:59.352 --> 00:20:01.392 like actual stop signs on the trail.

00:20:01.652 --> 00:20:06.652 Do not go past this stop sign after this time of the day because conditions are so dangerous. 00:20:06.772 --> 00:20:12.672 And if you do and you require rescue, you will be fined and humiliated and all these other things. 00:20:12.772 --> 00:20:15.032 And those lasted for a couple of years. And what we found there.

00:20:15.212 --> 00:20:19.052 How well they work. Well, what we found there is that people would go past the signs, of course. 00:20:19.212 --> 00:20:21.332 It would turn some people around. People would go past the signs and then they 00:20:21.332 --> 00:20:24.252 would get in trouble.

And when they got in trouble, they were reluctant to call 00:20:24.252 --> 00:20:27.412 for assistance because they knew they were going to face all kinds of humiliation 00:20:27.412 --> 00:20:30.272 and sanction and possible fines and things like that. 00:20:30.352 --> 00:20:35.832 And they would get themselves into more trouble by not calling for help in a timely manner. 00:20:36.797 --> 00:20:39.897 So then it went more to educational campaigns. 00:20:40.077 --> 00:20:42.237 It's really interesting.

I actually went to educational campaigns like, 00:20:42.237 --> 00:20:44.877 you know, hydrate or die, you know, drink, drink, drink. 00:20:45.297 --> 00:20:49.757 And then they created this unintended consequence where people were actually 00:20:49.757 --> 00:20:53.837 over-hydrating and getting into this situation that was called hyponatremia 00:20:53.837 --> 00:20:54.877 without getting too detailed. 00:20:55.037 --> 00:20:59.037 They're basically water intoxicated. They overdid it trying to comply with the rule.

00:20:59.337 --> 00:21:02.357 They'd fill themselves up with water. They'd go down there and sweat. 00:21:02.477 --> 00:21:04.417 They wouldn't eat any salty foods. And they would get into this, 00:21:04.437 --> 00:21:07.457 you know, pretty serious metabolic problem that ended up sending a whole bunch 00:21:07.457 --> 00:21:09.837 of them to the ICU for weeks at a time.

00:21:10.457 --> 00:21:14.297 And then they finally came back to a more moderate message, which is, 00:21:14.437 --> 00:21:18.117 you know, not like an enforcement thing, like go past here, you're going to get in trouble. 00:21:18.597 --> 00:21:22.857 But, you know, eat and drink as you go in and out of here and here are things to consider. 00:21:23.417 --> 00:21:27.457 And then really successfully, they actually put some, got some funding and put 00:21:27.457 --> 00:21:32.957 some, you know, volunteers and newbie rangers o